Carb loading and Weight Controls for MA's

[Fu-Pow]

Ok sports science gurus, here's a question for ya.....

Premise:

While MAs are not a high endurance sport they are in some ways. There is a base level of cardiovascular exertion thru an entire match or fight. This is punctuated by brief moments of extreme exertion. So your body gets hit on all metabolic levels. I think that most people will agree that high intensity interval training is the best sort of "cardio" training for martial arts. And if you looked at most "fast paced" MA classes (ie not IMAs) they contain this kind of stop/start high intensity training.

Question:

What is the best way eat for this type of training?


My thoughts:

If you work in a office job you are not doing HIIT all day, probably 2-3 hrs/ day at best. So it doesn't make much sense to me to eat as though you are going to be doing HIIT all day.

Bottom line is that you want to keep a steady flow of calories and keep your insulin levels low to avoid gaining weight (not a problem for you guys with super high metabolism.)

The best diet in terms of a sedentary lifestyle I would think would look something like a modified Atkins diet. Where you maintain glycogen levels by eating low calorie, low GI (glycemic index) carbohydrates thru out the day. Along with lean high quality protein and some fat.

However, before you do your HIIT does it make sense to eat something that would raise your glycogen levels....and in addition eat something that would help you maintain your glycogen levels through out your workout? For example, maybe some fruit juice followed by a low GI snack bar (like a cliff bar).

This is kind of like "carb loading" on a daily level except your not dropping your glycogen super low. Your just keeping at a maintained level through out the day and then giving it a boost for class or whatever.

Any thoughts/ideas are welcome (as long as your handle is not Ford Prefect, Fatherdog or Merryprankster.)

Peace.

[rubthebuddha]

what you're sayin makes sense, fu. i don't see any problems with it. if i paid more attention to when i eat certain things, i'd probably follow something that matches that. the only thing i'd add is that one should be abundandly clear on eating good protein throughout the day, and that moderate carbohydrate intake is good for post-workout recovery.

the problem i do see is putting those guys on your ignore list. ford and fd are probably the most well-read peeps on the training forum. mp just competes a ton and, being a snobby ***** about food, knows a wee bit about pre-competition snackin. like them or not, that's akin to a player ignoring bob knight just because he thinks knight's a dick (which, of course, knight is). like him or not, knight knows his stuff.

[Fu-Pow]

Its not always the content, its the delivery.

[Toby]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
However, before you do your HIIT does it make sense to eat something that would raise your glycogen levels....and in addition eat something that would help you maintain your glycogen levels through out your workout? For example, maybe some fruit juice followed by a low GI snack bar (like a cliff bar).

I don't think so. I don't think the mechanism is as short term as that. I think that muscle glycogen is used by exercise and after exercise the raise in insulin replenishes glycogen where it's needed so if you ate a bunch of carbs and didn't have a specific muscle deficit your liver would get loaded. But IIRC liver glycogen is the major store anyway. My knowledge is probably wrong and very limited. But interesting that you post this. Last night I picked up my copy of The Ketogenic Diet, which I haven't read for a while. Highly recommended book BTW. It was late and I was searching for something specific but there is a lot of stuff in it related to this post. Despite the title it is no Atkins book. Everyone here would find it informative.

[Ford Prefect]

I feel so unwelcome. That's not really a thought/idea right?

[blooming lotus]

so when and what amounts are you doing these workouts???......ish........

[Fu-Pow]

Well...I'm not %100 sure that they would qualify as HIIT.

Basically I'm mixing up 1/2 hr of jump roping + bag work at 5 minute intervals.

I' try to do this 2x a week before my kung fu class.

In addition I do 2x circuit training/week on the nautilus machines.

Then my kung fu class depending on what we are working on could be considered HIIT.

My goal here is to drop some fat (mostly on waist and thighs) and retain muscle.

However, I've noticed when I severely restrict my carbs that I don't have enough energy to complete my work outs.

So I'm looking for something that can help me keep my weight down but give me enough energy to keep up with my HIIT workouts.

Ya dig?

[Ford Prefect]

1) That definately does not qualify as HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training), which is basically a sprint followed by a period of restoration (active or passive), followed by sprint. 5 minutes is too long to be a "sprint".

2) Give up the machines.

3) Work sprints into your routine.

4) Toy with caloric intake. No need to avoid carbs. Just never have a large amount of carbs alone or with fat.

5) You can't spot reduce. You may just want to lose weight on your thighs and waist, but your genetics decides where it is going to take fat from. You just have to try to burn fat period.

6) Have a nice day.

7) I hate doing numbered posts.

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
I feel so unwelcome. That's not really a thought/idea right?

Me too. Let's go hang out in another thread, and you and MP can lie to me about how good being married is

[Ford Prefect]

I'm not even 2 months, so really it's great!

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Fu-Pow
Well...I'm not %100 sure that they would qualify as HIIT.

Basically I'm mixing up 1/2 hr of jump roping + bag work at 5 minute intervals.

I' try to do this 2x a week before my kung fu class.

In addition I do 2x circuit training/week on the nautilus machines.

Then my kung fu class depending on what we are working on could be considered HIIT.

My goal here is to drop some fat (mostly on waist and thighs) and retain muscle.

However, I've noticed when I severely restrict my carbs that I don't have enough energy to complete my work outs.

So I'm looking for something that can help me keep my weight down but give me enough energy to keep up with my HIIT workouts.

Ya dig?

dig.........


maybe you can try something like a redbull post workout ( having sugars/ taurine and caffiene.you maximise carb infusion to muscles and get an engrgy shot all fr a 250 ml recovery )..........

f you're restricting carbs ( which I do recommend for a high burn come rip)......maybe you need to look at potassium and clear fluids.potassium is found in milk, egg yolks, orange juice and anything as per label.........shoot for a good multi vit totally 500mg min........2000mg max........


potassium controls the pressure with which your heart pumps....so maybe that's all it is........also to high sugared carbs'll sap strength and leave you lethargic on such a plan............

additionally, bowel health is directly resposible for day to day running of our bodies.......being cpu for all of our nurtional intake

oh.and don't forget to do a grain every so often.........

cheers

[Toby]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
oh.and don't forget to do a grain every so often...

I almost read "don't forget to do a gram every so often". I thought, yeah, that'll cure your lethargy.

I did some reading last night. It was late so I didn't absorb as much as I could. But here goes.

Carbohydrates raise your blood glucose. Raised blood glucose causes your pancreas to release insulin. Insulin causes blood glucose to be transported to muscle and liver and stored as glycogen. Glycogen is the fuel used by your muscles for medium term exercise (20s < t < I forget but not hours). So yeah, the carbs replenish your muscle glycogen as it's used. If your muscles and liver are fully compensated with glycogen, any fat you intake will be stored as triglycerides. Also, some carbohydrate can be converted to triglyceride through DNL (acronym for I forget), but not much. How much glycogen is used by your muscles? Not much information is available, but an example table for exercises performed at 70% of 1RM had roughly ~5g of carbohydrates would replenish a 90s total time under tension set.

As to the GI index of carbs, this basically determines how quickly your blood glucose and subsequently insulin are raised in comparison to either white bread or glucose. So if it's in comparison to white bread and a carb has a GI of 130, blood glucose and insulin are raised 130% faster than they would be by white bread. Now if you're burning through your muscle glycogen fast with moderate intensity exercises over a medium time frame, this would be a good thing. If OTOH you're walking slowly for an hour, you'd probably want lower GI carbs. If you're sitting behind a desk all day, you'd want the lowest GI. The book I referenced earlier (from which all this comes) says IIRC that not much study has been done into which carbs and how much are necessary for certain exercise but says that the why isn't as important as the fact that carb loading before exercise works anecdotally. Recommendation is high GI carbs in liquid or as close as possible to pure glucose form.

Lastly, for people that feel lethargy, sodium is recommended to regulate blood pressure.

Hope that helps.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Toby
I almost read "don't forget to do a gram every so often". I thought, yeah, that'll cure your lethargy.

.

will come back for the rest of the post in an hour or two.class in 45 secs if I claim a slow watch............

westerners are programmed to eat waaay more carb than is essential to run anybodies body and take your muscley hulk..as long as it does what I want it to ........i'm good

[Ka]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
westerners are programmed to eat waaay more carb than is essential to run anybodies body

I hope your talking about social conditioning.

Originally posted by blooming lotus
maybe you can try something like a redbull post workout

I don't think this is a good recommendation for any person let alone a young athlete.If you need a hit perhaps a coffee before workout.Consider a Protien/carb drink or a banna milk honey type smoothie post workout. (largely determined by your fiscal situation).
Recent studies on cyclists saw increases in Muscle Glycogen % if they downed a protien drink straight after an endurance workout.
Need I say it but a great sum up of recent studies on T-mag.
http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....04-030-feature

Originally posted by Toby
"don't forget to do a gram every so often"

LOL The gram should be left to Friday Nights to make Mondays even worse.

[Toby]

I forgot to say what Ka said earlier, so I'll 2nd it - I don't think the Red Bull idea is good either. When I was in Austria before it became available worldwide I once drank 6 of the little concentrate bottles in a row, not the premixed cans. I used to like experimenting with my body. Anyway, I was pretty wired. It wasn't altogether unpleasant, but I could tell it wasn't altogether good for me either. I had significant experience with controlled substances and the Red Bull feeling ranked up there. I always wondered wtf is "Taurin" anyway?