Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 107

Thread: Who created Wu Bu Chuan?

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    San Francisco BAy Area
    Posts
    704
    There is no official version taught at the Jing Mo schools.. The Lau sisters must have adopted it for their curriculum.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    47,946

    You're right

    I thought about it and remember now. Dai Hong Kuen is a form within Gini Lau's Eagle Claw system. I worked on the video she did with WLE. I assume that for is in Lily's system as well.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Calgary, Canada
    Posts
    520
    Hi Gene
    Do you have the Chinese characters for her form?
    On the wle site they translate Dai Hong Kuen as 'Big Hero's Fist'.
    "Hong" as used in the set's name (at least in our lineage) does not mean
    'hero' nor does it mean 'red' nor a sir name. Here are the Chinese characters for our version of Da Hong Chang Quan
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 08-27-2004 at 01:24 PM.

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    47,946

    That's right...

    ...if memory serves, I addressed that in the intro of that video. I don't have the character on hand, nor that intro. I'd really have to dig to find that. Them's some old notes...
    I also addressed the issue of Hong phonetic/character ambiguity in an article I did for IKF on Hay Say Fu Hung Gar in Jan '99. It was reprinted in their Ultimate Martial Arts Encyclopedia (a fact that I was not alerted too, much less compesated for) and there are many copies floating around the net (maybe someone can dig up a link?) I think that was the most cited peice I ever did for IKF.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    barren desert
    Posts
    253

    Post gene's article

    Hey Gene,

    You just need to go to CFW Enterprises' site and search their (limited) archives
    gene ching on hung gar

    too bad you werent informed about it being republished . at least they valued your research!

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Calgary, Canada
    Posts
    520
    Out of curiosity I did a search on the web and found this cd by Shi De Yang. It appears that he used the same character for "hong" as we do. The character used does not mean 'red'. Our tradition associates both Da and Xiao Hong Chang Quan with the first Song Emperor Zhao Kuang Yin (Taizu). Gene or anyone else do you know the verbal tradition of Shi De Yang's form?
    r.

    cd
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 08-29-2004 at 08:24 AM.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    barren desert
    Posts
    253
    Originally posted by r.(shaolin)
    Out of curiosity I did a search on the web and found this cd by Shi De Yang. It appears that he used the same character for "hong" as we do. The character used does not mean 'red'. Gene or anyone else do you know the verbal tradition of Shi De Yang's form?
    r.
    Interesting...Perhaps it was just an incorrect translation, but Shi De Yang's video has 'hong' subtitled as 'red.'
    And this particular video doesn't give history on the form but emphasizes its fundamental techniques for shaolin kung fu.

    However, on www.aboutshaolin.com, it gives this info about the name:
    "Many masters translate Xiao Hong Quan as “The small Red boxing” but in the old times this style of Shaolin Boxing is called “The Small flood boxing”. Even in nowadays this style uses the old way of writing but the translation of the style changed.

    There is also a story about this style of boxing, which was told by the late 30th Generation Shaolin Master Shi Su Yun.

    This style of boxing took its name from a father and a son who came as refugees into Shaolin Temple. The small boxing routine was given by the son and the big boxing routine was given by the father to the Shaolin Temple as a gift for the Monk’s hospitality and help. The monks of Shaolin temple gave the name of the two fugitives to these styles. The fathers boxing routine was named as Da Hong Quan (Big Hong fist) and the son’s boxing routine was named as Xiao Hong Quan (Small Hong fist).

    Both of the Hong’s boxing routines have still been taught in Shaolin Temple since nowadays."
    Last edited by oasis; 08-29-2004 at 08:52 AM.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Calgary, Canada
    Posts
    520
    That's right, hong is used to describe things that are vast or overwhelming, commonly used in describing a flood or trubulent waves. These two long fist sets were practiced at Shaolin monastery for centuries (our tradition say since the beginning of the Song Dyanasty) and were used in tests of basic skill.

    r.

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Sichuan, China
    Posts
    106
    Originally posted by r.(shaolin)
    That's right, hong is used to describe things that are vast or overwhelming, commonly used in describing a flood or trubulent waves. These two long fist sets were practiced at Shaolin monastery for centuries (our tradition say since the beginning of the Song Dyanasty) and were used in tests of basic skill.

    r.
    I asked Shi Xingwei about the "Hong" sets because I wasn't sure if they were Hung family or where they came from. He said there are MANY legends about Shao Hong and Da Hong's origins but none of them are particularly important. It's just the name of the form.

    The nature of the form tells me that Hong means "red" in this case. Red represents Birth and Growth -- it's also a color signifying strength..energy..power. It represents the root chakra also. Given that the beginning of the form is also a chi kung element (touching heaven and earth) this answer makes the most sense. Excellent beginning Shaolin form.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sub. of Chicago - Downers Grove
    Posts
    6,772
    Hi,
    As for Xiao, and Da Hng Chuan, I don't believe they are connected to Tai Tzu. Both seem to have a different flavor than the Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the Tai Tzu Hong Chuan.

    Incedentally, Tai Tzu Hong Chuan also has Da, and Xiao Hong Chuan sets. They are much longer, and totally different Long Fist forms from the sets seen commonly at Shaolin.

    Tai Tzu Hong Chuan is suposed to be made of 4 Xiao Hong Chuan sets, and 6 Da Hong Chuan sets.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

    + = & a

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    47,946

    the pandora's box of hong

    Hong is a very tricky character for CMA. The root is gong with the left side radical for water (thus flood). gong on it's own means 'altogether' or 'share'. This is a different gong than in gongfu. Ironically, the hong that means 'red' has the root of gong too, but also a different gong than in gongfu - that one means 'work', it's the I-shaped character, same as the cantonese gung as in Hung Gar's ( or hong jia) gung gee fook fu. It should be noted that in the Chinese martial arts, it is not uncommon to find things misspelled. How do you misspell in Chinese? Well, one way aside from just messing up the character is to write the wrong character - something that is phonetically the same as the one you want to use. I've found myself on some massive tangents trying to chase down a character, then finding it was just a misspelling.

    oasis - thanks for finding that old article. The funny thing about that was it's a piece about my BSL sifu Wing Lam and the picture they used was Sifu Y.C Wong. I'm sure neither would be happy about that.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Tell me if you figure that one out.
    Posts
    73
    I'm for some reason having trouble remembering the terminology of the steps in WBQ-

    Gong Bu...gotcha
    Ma Bu...gotcha...
    now whats the name of the step you sink backwards into..the one with the legs crossed?

    anyway, after that there's a Pu bu (actually the version i learned has a Pu Bu at the very beginning)

    and then the last step, is that called a Xi Bu...Xie Bu...i dunno, i suck....

    Just wanting to know the Chinese vernacular for them.

    Thanks,

    DC

  13. #58
    Let me see if i remember. There's mabu, gongbu, pubu, xubu(empty stance), and xiebu(crossed stance). I think that's it.
    Amithaba

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fremont, CA, U.S.A.
    Posts
    47,946

    If you want the characters...

    ...we published the basic Shaolin version of Wubu in our last Shaolin Special (Jul/Aug 2004) including all the terms in chinese characters.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Whippany NJ, USA
    Posts
    1,552
    I;ve been reading this discussion about the Da and Xiao Hong Quan forms and I must comment that a lot of what is being said is flat out wrong (I've been doing research on Forms history and origins for the past 20 years and I wrote all those KF history articles for Wushu Kungfu magazine af ew years back).

    The Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan form and the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan (32 moves) form are both part of the same system, they share a large portion of moves. Both also are derived from Tong Bei Quan originally.
    This form comes from Li Shou and his son, who along with Bai Yu Feng, came to Shaolin to help Monk Jue Yuan develop the almost dead Shaolin martial arts into a new system.
    Together they developed the Xiao Hong Quan form that everyone knows and a DIFFERENT Da Hong Quan form (it is rarely shown at Shaolin, but I have copies of it, it has four sections) that is also very much like Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan (and it is like Xiao Hong Quan). Bai Yu Feng developed the 13 Grasping Claws form and this eventually mixed with Lohan (of which Monk Jue Yuan was an expert) and became the Five Animals system (only the southern shaolin arts call it the five animals system and not did it is famous the north calls it that too), but originally there were at least 12 animals forms being developed, but Bai Yu Feng died after developing 10 animal forms completely.

    The Da Hong Quan (which in its entiretyis three sections) that is currently taught out of Shaolin is a long form that was developed much later than Xiao Hong Quan and the original Da Hong Quan. If you see the newer Da Hong Quan you can easily see that it is not at all related to Xiao Hong Quan, they do not share much in common, but the old Da Hong Quan form shares many moves between them.

    The Hong in Xiao Hong Quan was the flood character originally. The Red Fist Hong Quan forms, which are from Shanxi province are complelty different from the Shaolin Flood Fist forms, even though both styles share a form called Xiao Hong Quan.

    Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan is a mixture of Lohan and Tong Bei moves, many of the moves in this form and Xiao Hong Quan can also be found in altered form or not in both Chen and Yang Tai Chi.
    Many people think that Yang tai chi borrowed from Wudang Nei Jia Quan forms, but the truth is that it borrowed from Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan just like Chen did, except Chen style borrowed from both this form and the original Da Hong Quan forms and also from Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan. Only thing different is that Yang borrows some moves from these forms that are different from the ones that Chen borrowed.
    Four forms of Hong Quan and Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan are one of the roots of Chen as listed by their family books.
    Yang Lu Chan studied Hong Quan first before he studied Chen style.
    The moves that are in the Wudang Nei Jia forms that are seen in Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan are either borrowed from Tai Tzu or come from the same Tong Bei root as Tai Tzu Quan.

    There are many Hong Quan forms all over China that are very much like Shaolin Tai Tzu Quan, these are considered Folk Long Fist, they are very old, dating back from Sung Dynasty, as everyone wanted to practice what the Emperor did.

    So, the mystery is still where did the newer Da Hong Quan form (all 4 sections) come from?

    We've been having this discussion at www.russbo.com
    if you want to read it, go to the forums archives and look up Xiao/Da Hong Quan thread.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •