Who created Wu Bu Chuan?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Also, who said that Cha Quan is yonger than Tai Tzu Quan.
Impossible since Tai Tzu is from the song dynasty
and Cha Quan goes back to the original tan toi like Moslem style that were from the dynasty before, even the Tang Dynasty. It goes back to the martial arts practiced along the silk route by Moslem.

Why Cha Quan shows similarities to Tai Tzu Quan is simply because Cha Quan also is based on Tong Bei (mixed with persian and other martial arts from the far west).
Tong Bei is the second oldest style in China, and it spread all over northern China in the span of over 3,000 years.
Only Shuai Jiao is older than Tong Bei, Shuai Jiao is over 4,000 years old.

[GeneChing]

Great to have you here! Welcome!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by GeneChing
Great to have you here! Welcome!

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Hope people don't think I sound arrogant in my posts, I am just being matter of fact, no meaness implied.

I'll try to post when I can, I am stilling doing a lot of research in between touring and recording with my band Electric Frankenstein www.electricfrankenstein.com and writing articles for various magazines.

Please feel free to discuss any Chinese KF history of styles and forms with me anytime! thanks!

I hope to write an article on the Shaolin 18 Lohan Fist form and all the hidden things that are inside that form, for Wushu KungFu magazines, soon as I can actually have the time to sit and write it!
Been trying to get that done for the last 2 years!

By the way, I am teaching supertraditional Chinese Martial Arts in New Jersey. So, if anyone wants to learn the real ancient way to do forms and so on, if they are from the NY/NJ area, please contact me, thanks!

Sal

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
it's not there,
but I think they recently took alot of thier videos down to update thier server or something , and all of them might not be back up as yet.

http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/m...wu_bu_quan.jpg

[Starchaser107]

that's not a video clip, it's a picture

[r.(shaolin)]

I agree that Cha Quan Hung Quan, Hua Quan, not only resemble each other but are related to one another. It is my opinion however, that Cha Quan developed out of the older Song Dynasty style of Hung Chang Quan . Cha is traced most convincing to Chamir a Hui native from Xinjiang who lived during the early 1600's (Ming Dynasty). I know there are some legends saying it came from the Tang Dynasty but this may be "borrowed history" based on a Tong Dynasty short story called Kun Lun Nu. Some Cha Quan folk traditions claim that Cha Quan is traced to Hua Quan, a Tang Dynasty general named Hua Zongqi and his student Cha Yuanyi. However these stories are connected to Shangdong Province. I find it more convincing that Hung Chang Quan was more than likely a military style practiced in the Loyang region. "Hong jin jun was a northern Song army during time of the Jurchen conquest. This is to say that 'Hong jin jun', military style was around before the time of Fu-yu and I believe very likely the source of this Song Dynasty martial art.
According to our tradition, Da and Xiao Hong (overwhelming) Chang Quan, were absorbed from a style called Hong Chang Quan by monks of Henan Shaolin Si. Apparently these forms were adopted by Shaolin monks as part of Fuyu's program to develop Shaolin martial arts. The style is accredited to Zhao Kuangyin, the first Song Emperor(posthumous temple name -Taizu). Zhao came from a military family in Lo-yang, not far from Shaolin Si. As an outstanding military officer he became the commander of the palace guard. The Imperial guard was considered the best fighting force of the Zhou military. As a famed military commander and later as the first Song Emperor, it can be seen why his name would have been attached to Hung Quan.

I would point out that Song armies were very large and it is highly unlikely that only one style was practiced by an army made up of so many men coming from different regions. 'Hong jin' army martial arts more likely came from a number of different 'bao-jiaï' that more or less resembled each other in terms of general characteristics.
In the latter part of the Song dynasty, a number of reforms were introduced including the establishment of local militias called 'bao-jiaï' plus a 'directorate of weapons' to supervise armaments manufacture with the intention of improving weapon quality. Between 1069 and 1073, an important official, named Wang Anshi, introduced a number of reforms for the defense of the Song, one of which was the 'bao jia'. It meant 'protective households." Originally is was a policing system which organized households into groups of 10s and 100s, but became the basis of organizing militias to strengthen the regular army. This without a doubt had a profound effect on protective folk martial arts in the northern regions. In fact there were 11 martial arts training grounds established for this training in the old capital near Loyang alone. Eventually 700,000 trainees in Henan, Hebei and Shaanxi were involved.

There may well have been a related martial art practiced by Hong Jin (Red Turbans) inspired by the Song military. Hong Jin was a movement in the north part of China lead by the Peng Yingyu, a monk turned revolutionary leader, as part of the uprising against the Yuan Mongols in the 1330's.

r.

[Jhapa]

Originally posted by Starchaser107
that's not a video clip, it's a picture

here you go. again

http://www.wushucentral.com/videos/m...wu_bu_quan.mpg

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, r.shaolin, great posting!

The trouble is there is more than one Cha Quan, there are various lineages from various sources and time periods that are called Cha Quan. I have at least 4 hard cover books that delinate four completely different Cha Quan styles. They all trace their lineage back to toally different people and they are all different from each other, they do not do the same forms.

I agree that there is one Cha Quan that seems to be post- Tai Tzu, but there is also a Cha Quan that is pre-tai tzu that can easily have been something that Song Tai Tzu might have encountered over the years, especially since many members of the army and also generals were of moslem heritage (they liked the pay and they were proud nationalists).

You have something when you mention Loyang, this city, so very near Shaolin is the real center of Henan Martial arts.
There were Taoist schools there that preserved an important style that during the Yuan Dynasty, Monk Jue Yuan had to fall back on. He reached a stalemate in his experiments with Lohan in Shaolin and Bai Yu Feng sent Jue to study with HIS teacher, who was of the Ma family, an ancient moslem family name. Jue stayed here and learned what he was told was the original internal arts that used to be taught at Shaolin before it was almost destroyed.
Jue stayed in Loyang many many years and went back to Shaolin in his old age and passed down what he learned (which reaches far ahead to Choy Gar eventually once this style moved south) to a few students, who taught many by the Ching dynasty.

Also, bear in mind that Henan Xin Yi Liu Hu also originates in Loyang with the Ma family by the 1600s. (no one so far knows for sure who taught the Ma family Xin Yi, there is no proof who is real teacher was, it was not Cao Jiwu or Ji Long Feng as Xing Yi practioners claimed a hundred years later. No one in Loyang says that Ma learned from either person, only that a wandering Taoist taught him Xin Yi. His Liu Hu style is not the same as the Shaolin style of the same name, his was the local moslem indiginous art, named after their six cornered hats.

So, it is very possible, like you point out, that Sun Tai Tzu forms show commonality with the local Hong Quan forms because Sun Tai Tzu borrowed from the forms most likely to be learned from his youth in Loyang. So, his style comes from folk Hong Quan forms and not vice-versa, a great observation you have there!
thanks!

Fu Yu / Fu Ju (they are two different people, Fu Yu was commisioned to make new "shaolin" temples all over the place).
Fu Ju was the Abbot that in Shandong gathered the 18 masters (all 18 are from Shandong, you know). Fu Ju did this some time after first Song emperor was dead (he died young). He created 245 or so forms during that time. These were preserved in a book, the dozen Kan Jia Forms come from this (these are the forms that are no called Northern Shaolin style by many who do 10 of these 12 forms - the Wing Lam / Chan Kwok, etc schools).
Supposedly he did gather some forms that are Hong Quan. But over time something got lost in knowledge.
There is today the Xiao Hong Quan form that is obviously like the Hong Quan forms from Shandong and Henan areas. But there are two Da Hong Quans now, the one that is really from back then is most like Xiao Hong Quan (and Tai Tzu, but maybe tai Tzu takes from it, not known yet) and it has 4 sections, its a long form.
And, there is the newer Da Hong Quan that is found now that has 3 sections but is not as long and shares almost nothing with Xiao Hong Quan and Tai Tzu Quan.
These two different Da Hong Quans cannot be mixed up, they are different by a lot. Doc from Russbo.com asked the old guys at Shaolin about this and they said this info is correct.
You can read all this discussion at his site in the forum archives under Shaolin Kung Fu.

The militias were a major way that some forms or style more than likely became widespread from Shandong, Shanxi, and Henan provinces.

Shaolin fought against the Red Turbans eventually.
They were taken over by Yuan sympathizers long before, that's why many were at Shandong "shaolin" base, they developed Tang Lang really during the Song Dynasty and it was used AGAINST Shaolin arts when the need arose during the Yuan.
I heard that the Red Turbans took up Taoism because it was indiginous to China, as opposed to Buddhism. Many started hating Buddhism out of nationalist sentiments during the Yuan.
Many Buddhist temples had become corrupt landlords over the peasants and we allowing gambling and prostitution in the temples, and used the temples tax-free status to get rich from it all.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri
I'll try to post when I can, I am stilling doing a lot of research in between touring and recording with my band Electric Frankenstein www.electricfrankenstein.com and writing articles for various magazines.

**** electricfrankenstein, i havent heard that name in a long time. how are you guys doing with it?

[Sal Canzonieri]

EF is doing great, bigger than ever, 14 years on and just as many albums too.
New album is out in April.

[Starchaser107]

ok jhapa, thanks.

[r.(shaolin)]

I do know that some people have suggested that the long fist styles like Hua, and Cha were the invention of the Moslems, I disagree. It doesn't make any sense particularly in Henan which can be considered the birthplace of the Chinese nation, the origin of Chinese family names, the residence of 19 dynasties and the ancient political, economic and cultural center of China. Yes there were members of the Hui minority who were in the Chinese military and some were even generals, but IMO it is an erroneous idea to believe the Hui invented long fist, and associated weapons training methods.
As I say in my post above, training of very large numbers of civilians in the north (including minorities like the Hui) during the Northern Song was extensive, serious and well organized. This included Hebei and Shandong. Hundreds of thousands of men were taught military techniques (wuyi) with standards controlled by the Chinese government. In fact some historians estimate the number of civilians being trained in military techniques in the northern provinces to be approx. 3 million plus. It should not surprise that Song Dynasty style weapons, are used by nearly all northern Chinese styles (including the so called Hui styles) up to this very day. Their origins are not Hui villagers but the Chinese Song military.
The consequences of the extensive training of that many civilians did come back to haunt subsequent Dynasties.

As far as Zhao Kuangyin, learning his martial arts from villagers, I doubt it. Both his father and grandfather were military leaders. His grandfather was a general, in fact he was also the commander of the palace guard which were the elite fighting core the Zhou army.

..........................
Sal Canzonieri wrote:
This form (Shaolin Xiao Hong Quan) comes from Li Shou and his son, who along with Bai Yu Feng, came to Shaolin to help Monk Jue Yuan develop the almost dead Shaolin martial arts into a new system. Together they developed the Xiao Hong Quan form that everyone knows and a DIFFERENT Da Hong Quan form (it is rarely shown at Shaolin, but I have copies of it, it has four sections) that is also very much like Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan (and it is like Xiao Hong Quan). Bai Yu Feng developed the 13 Grasping Claws form and this eventually mixed with Lohan (of which Monk Jue Yuan was an expert) and became the Five Animals system (only the southern shaolin arts call it the five animals system and not did it is famous the north calls it that too), but originally there were at least 12 animals forms being developed, but Bai Yu Feng died after developing 10 animal forms completely.
..........................

Our tradition has a different version of this and claims that Jue Yuan was skilled Bai Ma Quan, a long fist style. By the time of Jue Yuan (Yuan Dynasty) both Xiao and Da Hong were already at Shaolin - neither he nor Bai Yu Feng invented it. However our tradition mentions that Bai Yu Feng did help re-introduce Hua Quan into the Shaolin curriculum. We also do Xiao and Da Hong but it not the same as what is being practiced at Shaolin today. Our sets are more like long fist forms than xiao hong quan I've seen been done by todays monks.
Although the Shaolin tradition we practice is extensive, Bai Yu Feng's, wu xing are the core of our tradition and are made up of 12 sets ( 10 bare-hand sets and two weapon sets). It is very much a combination of long fist and animal imitation methods ( 10 animals and 5 fist formations). Our tradition claims that Bai Yu Feng was planning to develop 15 sets but passed away before completing the last 3 sets.
r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, I certainly didn't mean to imply that the Moslem Chinese created Long Fist! That's impossible, for all the reasons you state and more.
Just pointing out that there had to have been feedback between diverse groups.

It's very obvious that Hua and Cha Quan and other Moslem styles are essentially composed of many moves from Tong Bei, Ba Fan Shan, Chuo Jiao, Shuai Jiao, etc. These are very common everywhere in northern China.

Henan's Moslem population has always been famous for it's martial arts, so there is a feedback loop there too.

Also, about Zhao Kuangyin, also wasn't clear, I didn't mean that he learned from villagers, but that surely his family was aware or even well versed in the martial arts that are most practiced in Loyang, there must have been some feedback loop here too.

[r.(shaolin)]

I think we're more or less on the same page on this.

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by r.(shaolin)
I think we're more or less on the same page on this.

r.

cool, thanks for some great exchange of knowledge.