Who created Wu Bu Chuan?

[r.(shaolin)]

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Sal wrote:
cool, thanks for some great exchange of knowledge.
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dido

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Sal wrote:
Fu Yu / Fu Ju (they are two different people, Fu Yu was commisioned to make new "shaolin" temples all over the place).
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Agreed. See:
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&threadid=7981

[Sal Canzonieri]

Ah, great! Finally someone that I can ask questions of and learn from too, thanks!

Okay, many many books and articles confuse Fu-Yu of the Yuan Dynasty and Fu-Ju of the Song Dynasty.

DO you have some important details about Fu-Ju that you can list so I can comment, like you listed about Fu-Yu in that previous thread?

Is it correct that Fu-Ju went to Shandong province and established new martial arts forms there?
I believe so, based on what I have uncovered.

I have some missing pieces in a big puzzle I am working on about origins of some forms and details on Fu-Ju that I can compare to my notes would really help!
thanks!

[r.(shaolin)]

I know very very little about Fu Ju. As far as I could find he is first mentioned in the Qing Dynasty and is associated with Tanglang Quan history. I understand that there is other sources concerning the 18 masters which were brought together by a monk from Shaolin named Fu Ju, but I think they all draw on "Shaolin Monastery Annals' (Qing Dynasty). His name does not appear in any Song or even Yuan documents, Buddhist or otherwise, at least that I am aware of. Our tradition makes no mention of him. I would love to hear what you know of this monk.

r.

[r.(shaolin)]

Since Fu Yu is important to Shaolin history and the article on him on www.aboutshaolin.com a bit on the thin side I'm resposting some other stuff I wrote on him which you might find of interest.

The subject of Jue Yuan and Fu Yu touches on our collective Songshan Shaolin history and which are connected to a series of events that go back to the dying days of the northern Song Dynasty. This puts the reasons in the development of Shaolin martial arts by both these monks into perspective. This was the time period during which both Jue Yuan (late 1220's-1230's) and Fu Yu (1250's-1260's) were active at Shaolin. It begins with the Jurchens and their 120 year 'alien' rule over the north parts (including the areas where Shaolin Si stood) followed by the Mongolian conquest that swept from the north pushing the Jin out of the region. These conquests created great havoc not only in the population at large but in the monastic world, not only from the Mongols but from desperate roving bands of robbers.
It is important to point out that a large number of monasteries in the north were either destroyed or abandoned. The Mongol invasion was a time of great tribulation. There were even proposals by some Mongol leaders to turn northern China into a great pasture land by killing every single Chinese person in the regions. It would have been the greatest slaughter of human beings in the history man. This did not happen largely because of a few Chinese Buddhist leaders that held sway over the Mongol court. Of these giants among men, the greatest was a Chan monk by the name of Hai-yun. A number of Taoist monks were involved in this great work of defending the and saving the population as well. The most notable was Qui Chuji (aka. Ch'ang-ch'un chen-jen). At that time he was the patriarch of Quanzhen sect of Taoism. Early in the Mongol campaign into Central Asia, Qui Chuji befriended Genghis Khan and subsequently was appointed as administrator of all religious communities including the Buddhist ones. He further gave Qiu Chuji an edict exempting all clergy in China from taxes and labor service obligations. Armed with this power, the Taoists immediately began leveraging their position to take over Buddhist monasteries which had been neglected because of the many military campaigns and even more boldly forcefully, seizing temples and monastery that were occupied.

The Chan monk Hai-yun had become very influential with the Mongolian military government as well and eventually was appointed superintendent of Buddhist Affairs in north China. Earlier on Hai-yun recommended Fu-yu being appointed Abbot (Fang-chang) of Shaolin Si. At his recommendation Fu-yu was appointed to lead the Buddhists in denouncing Taoist appropriation of Buddhist monasteries as well as other misrepresentations in front of the Mongol military governor. After arguments from both sides, Kublai Kan declared the Buddhist as winners and ordered that all seized property be returned. It was under the directions of Fang-chang, Venerable Fu-yu and Shaolin monks had the onerous task of taking these temples back. It appears that the training and development of a defensive force was the direct result of these events as there was a great resistance on the part of the Taoists to comply. Buddhist historical records document this debate with the Taoists but not the Buddhist defensive martial initiative under his direction. That comes to us from martial traditions of various Shaolin Lohan lineages. But they do make sense and are relatively consistent.

The Buddhist Taoist debates and controversies go back to the Han Dynasty. By the 1200's it was already a thousand year old controversy. A controvery that was end by Fu-yu in 1258. This final 'show down' took place after the long standing bickering took a particularly nasty turn with the Taoist appropriating over 500 Buddhist monasteries and temples and destroying statues notably of Buddha and Kuan-yin. Furthermore their campaign included misleading Buddhist converts through what were essential two fabricated Taoist apocrypha. Although these texts were ancient, they were simply copies of very old fabrications that were part of the controversy for centuries. Although these controversies were framed in doctrinal matters, they, as I mention above, were essentially political power struggles. It was Fu-yu that is given credit for putting this 1000 year old debate to rest and discrediting the claim by the Taoists, that Buddha was but a manifestations of Lao-tzu. The Taoist were claiming that Lao-tzu appeared as Buddha for the expressed purpose of converting the 'barbarians.'

Fu Yu headed the debate on 3 occasions in 1255, in 1256 ( the Taoist refused to attend that meeting), and finally in 1258 when he lead 300 Buddhist and faced 200 Taoist. This grand assembly a K'ai-p'ing took place at the order of Qubilai Kan with the intention to settle the matter once and for all. At that time the Taoists lost much property as well as influence with the Mongol court. Apparently, however, Taoist did not rollover easily in giving up any property. I believe this was the principle reason why Fu-yu re-established a formal marital organization and martial arm at Shaolin.

After 1258, Fu-yu began reestablishing Buddhist Monasteries in the north. In 1258 he was 55 years old. Given the realities of the time and place and the job at hand, It was not without reason that Fu-yu organized an effort to invite the best experts available to him.
Fu-yu invited martial shifu on three occasion to Shaolin, each group to teach for a three year period. The effort spanned 9 years. Their work involved teaching resident monks and developing a martial organization of monk experts. This is reminiscent of what that took place at Shaolin at least twice during previous dynasties. Fu-yu created a defensive system at Songshan Shaolin Si - the 'muscle' so to speak, to accomplish the task of rebuilding Buddhism in the Mongol territories. The result was that there was a great depository of highly effective martial methods at Shaolin Si but not necessarily a coherent system.

As a further note on the Taoist issue, based on Buddhist records and an 1281 edict by Qubilai Kan, it is clear that the Taoist were still harboring grievances and ill feelings concerning the 1258 judgment because in 1280 the banned texts were still being circulated. There are even records of some Taoists claiming falsely, that Buddhists set two of their temples on fire. Their attempt to frame Buddhist monks was uncovered and the now irritate government had offending Taoists executed.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally posted by r.(shaolin)
I know very very little about Fu Ju. As far as I could find he is first mentioned in the Qing Dynasty and is associated with Tanglang Quan history. I understand that there is other sources concerning the 18 masters which were brought together by a monk from Shaolin named Fu Ju, but I think they all draw on "Shaolin Monastery Annals' (Qing Dynasty). His name does not appear in any Song or even Yuan documents, Buddhist or otherwise, at least that I am aware of. Our tradition makes no mention of him. I would love to hear what you know of this monk.

r.

No I have seen him listed in Shandong Shaolin Literature, he is listed as being from the Song Dynasty time period, near the bigging of this period. Jue Yuan is from the end of this period.

Also he is in the Shaolin Da Quan:

Chapter 3 the fighting monks in Song Jin dynasty...151
27 Ling Qiu 28 Zhi Rui 29 Fu Ju 30 Zhi Sheng 31 Hui Wei 32 Hui Lin
33Hai Zhou 34 Hong Wen 35 Jue Ze 36 Jue Yuan 37 Qiu Yue 38 Cheng Hui
39 Zong Yin

[Sal Canzonieri]

There is a section on Fu Yu and one on Fu Ju in Shaolin Da Quan.

Fu Yu is listed at the end of here:

1. the ancestor of Shao Lin temple--Ba Tuo.................44
2.Shao Lin temple Da Cheng Zen ancestor--Pu Ti Da Mo.........................47
3.Da Cheng Zen second ancestor--Hui Ke...................49
4.Da Cheng Zen third ancestor--Seng Can...................50
5.Da Cheng Zen fourth ancestor--Dao Xin...................50
6.Da Cheng Zen fifth ancestor--Hong Ren...................51
7.Da Cheng Zen sixth ancestor,Chinese Zen ancestor--Hui Neng...........53
8.Zen seventh ancestor--Shen Hui55
9.the sixth ancestor of north sect Mahayana Zen--Shen Xiu....................57
10.the sixth ancestor of north sect Mahayana Zen--Fa Ru .....................58
11.the seventh ancestor of north sect Mahayana Zen--PuJi.....................58
12.the ancestor of Zen Cao Dong Sect --Ben Ji ..........59
13.the ancestor of Zen Lin Ji Sect --Yi Xuan.... ...........60
14.the ancestor of Zen Yun Men Sect --Wen Yan .....60
15.the ancestor of Zen Wei Yang Sect --Hui Ji ..........61
16.the ancestor of Zen Fa Yan Sect --Wen Yi .............62
17.the ancestor of Shao Lin temple Cao Dong Sect --Fu Yu......................62

[Sal Canzonieri]

Also it lists:

5.Fu Ju assempled the heros and created the fist forms............................316
6. Jue Min monk saved the general...............................317
7.Hui Wei mond resist against the army of Jin............322
8.Jue Yuan went out the mountain and visit the famous master...............323

Fu Ju it makes clear assembled the 18 masters from Shandong Province and the surrounding areas.

Fu Yu assembled people to document forms and made the book that contains about 250 (?) forms.

It is very confusing as to which one of them to developed the Kan Ja 13 forms (now known as Northern Shaolin style).
I am pretty sure it was Fu Yu that did so. Which means way before Fu Ju.

Everything must have turned to **** again by the time Jue Yuan was around since he started from scratch (18 Lohan, the oldest style indiginous to Shaolin) and developed new material from that core.

[r.(shaolin)]

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Sal wrote:
No I have seen him listed in Shandong Shaolin Literature, he is listed as being from the Song Dynasty time period, near the bigging of this period. Jue Yuan is from the end of this period.
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My point was that this information comes from Qing Dynasty
documents or later. There are no Song or Yuan Dynasty documents that mention him and these events - at least that I know of. Its very much the same with Damo, althought his name is mentioned as far back as the Wei Dynasty, his connections to Shaolin martial arts comes from 1600s.

As far as historical Shaolin martial arts instructional documents, they are all relatively recent with the the earliest I know of written in the early 1600's, and that was by a layman.

On another note, do you know if there are stone steles at Shaolin for Fu Ju, Jue Yuan, and Qiu Yue? I do know that there is one for Fu Yu done by Zhao Mengfu of the Yuan Dynasty.

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Sal wrote:
It is very confusing as to which one of them to developed the Kan Ja 13 forms (now known as Northern Shaolin style).
I am pretty sure it was Fu Yu that did so. Which means way before Fu Ju.
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Fu Ju is traditionally placed in the early years of the Song Dynasty (mid 900's) while Fu Yu's activities are quite accurately accounted for by historians (see above and my post above) well after the time of Fu Ju not before him.

The most verifiable dates are those concerning Abbot Fu Yu. Using these as a basis, puts Jue Yuan's activities slightly before Fu Yu. That is, if the (1224-1234) dates concerning Jue Yuan's travels are accurate.

Are you saying that these Kan Jia sets are the same as the 10 taught by Kuo Yu Chang?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Damo I know is from 1600s first referenced.
There have been extensive articles about this, and everyone that has traced the legend atributes it to one person's preface to his book that made the claim and it continued unquestioned, though very false, til recent times.

Far as I know there are no steiles at Shaolin that mention Jue Yuan or Qiu Yeu.

Fu Ju, well, I thought he went to Shandong province and had left Henan Shaolin place. maybe that's why it is hard to find historical records at henan Shaolin?
What if we traced the names of the 18 masters he gathered?
I recognize two names (Lin Chung and Lu Chun-Yi) as students of Monk Zhou Tong, the famed Fan Tzi master and teacher of General Yue Fei.
It also includes Yen Ching as one of the masters, who is from the Mizong Style (and who was adopted by Lu Chun-Yi).
Also, Emperor Tai Tzu must have been dead by the time the style was named after him, so Fu Ju had to have done this gathering in the early 1200s.

I haven't seen anything anywhere about there being stone steles at Shaolin for Fu Ju, Jue Yuan, and Qiu Yue.

Yes, I am saying that these Kan Jia sets (there are 13 of them) are the same as the 10 taught by Kuo Yu Chang. The first 10 sets of Kan Jia Quan have the same names and are basically the same moves.

[r.(shaolin)]

Sal wrote:
Damo I know is from 1600s first referenced.
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I'm with you if you are referring to the claim that Damo was the source of martial arts at Shaolin. I agree it is a fabrication and clearly ridiculous, Just it is ridiculous to believe that Yue Fei founded xingyi and Ying Zhao Fan Men etc.
However Damo is referenced well before the 1600's in important and verifiable historical documents. He has been important to Chan Buddhism at least since Song times. Furthermore there is documentation that he has been revered by Shaolin monks for centuries. Damo represents a system of thought and is embodied in the practice of Chan and martial arts at Shaolin for centuries. It is too bad the Shaolin is abandoning him as is suggested by Gene's post elsewhere. If this is in-fact the case, it is recent.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The jury isn't out on the Yue Fei connection to Xin Yi Liu Ho Quan.

There is all kinds of recent findings that are bring him back into the picture, at least indirectly.
Lots of distortion has happened because of people claiming stuff about their stuff that isnt really true, origin-wise. They are really just calling the same styles different names to stake a claim for themselves.

here's what shaping up:

Back in late Song Dynasty time, the real source of most of the styles that are claiming ancestry to Yue Fei, is the documented person Zhou Tong (many various spellings).
What he taught is essential Ba Fan Shan or what is not called Fan Tzi and also he taught what is essentially Tong Bei. Two of his students are listed as among the 18 Masters that Mantis is rooted to. But they are real people, because their martial arts have lineages in Shandong province. Styles today known as Yue Fei, are very similar to Fan tzi / Tong Bei mixture.
Yue Fei is considered to be one of his students. And, as has been posted on some other websites:
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/xyxy/xylhhistory.html

"Recently one of Chinese martial arts magazines published an article about a discovery of a new branch of Xinyiquan, related neither to Moslem nor Dai Family. The style is practiced only in a very small community in a small village in Henan Province. Many facts seem to support the thesis that the style is a "living remain" of Yue Fei's boxing from before Ji Longfeng's times. For example - one of the rules of that style does not allow to pass the boxing to people with the last name Qin - probably because Yue Fei was betrayed (which resulted in death sentence) by Qin Hui, minister in Song court. The style shows some similarity to other Xinyi branches, but its movements are more simple, methodology of Neigong (internal exercises) is practically non-existent and emphasis is put on practical fighting skills."

From what I heard this rare style that is called xin yi doesn't really have forms but loose techniques and they are very similar to what is called Yue Fei Style in other provinces.

Also, if you compare Xin Yi ? xing yi loose techniques to movements shown in fantzi styles like the "Cuffed style of Fan tzi" they are easy to translate. My teacher knows both styles and he has shown me how if you know xing yi already the moves in these fan tzi forms are a piece of cake to follow and learn.
So, all this stuff seems to share some roots.

Furthermore, Lau Tsoi San got from the famous Liu Dekuan
Six Harmony style, Yueh Style San Shou and the long spear. This Six Harmony is synonimous with Xing Yi, because Lau later in his life went to his teacher's xingyiquan brother Geng Ji Shan (1860-1928) to complete his study of xingyiquan.

Liu Dekuan's original style was Yueh Style San Shou (also called Yueh Style Eagle Hand or Yueh Style Connected Fists). He learned this from Hebei Xiong County Liu Shijun. De Kuan first studied with Shijun's student Xu Liu and then later he studied with Shijun.

So what one person at one time was calling Yue Fei style, another person was calling it Fan Tzi while another called it Liu Ho Quan, while another called it Xin Yi Liu Ho Quan, but they are all derived from the same source, Zhou Tong's teachings.

Zhou Tong is said to have been to Shaolin, if he did all there was there was Lohan, and the 18 Lohan Fists form, the very first move, done exactly like Splitting in Xing Yi/Xin Yi, is called Eagle Seizes the Gullet and it involves the earliest use of the eagle claw technique. It is the opening move of the form and can be used with chin na and pressure point defense as well as usual self defense.
This move is also called the Shi Ying zhao Qin Na (岳氏鷹爪擒拿, the Eagle-Claw Catch, which is what it is also called in Yue Fei styles and eagle claw styles.
Zhou Tong is said to have taught "The 108 Fighting techniques", which is essentially fan tzi and tong bei and lohan. I've watched eagle claw forms and the throat seizing while twisting a caught attacker's fist is exactly how that first move in 18 Lohan is done.

[r.(shaolin)]

Yue Fei became a military hero and a wonderful semi-historical myth, there may be other reasons why arts like xingyi and Ying Zhao Fan Men as well as others, including elements of Shaolin, as being linked to him. As in the tradition of Northern Shaolin I practice, we have a number weapon sets (ie. "Yue Jia Qiang", " Yue Jia Shuang Chui" etc.) connected to Yui Fei. Although it can be safely certain that Yue Fei, excelled in the military arts (i.e. military weapons), I think it is unlikely that he invented xingyi or any of other arts that are credited to his name. However I believe there is good reason why these are associated with him.
As Yue's fame of being a daring leader grew, he was given higher titles and more ambitious assignments by the Song Imperial government. By the age of 30 he was leader of the main armies (Central China Unified Forces) in the central Yangzi region, leading offensives against the Jin and rebel forces. As Yue Fei defeated these armies, his "Yue Jia Jun" absorbed thousands of the enemie's best, "battle tested" troops.
As a result, his armies grow to over 100,000 men. It would be ridiculous to think that Yue personally trained these men in his martial arts. The term 'Jia,' in this case refers to "family army". It was not uncommon for the forces of generals to be called " jia." This was not because they were private armies, but because it was the mode of military organizations of the time, for armies to take on characteristics of their leaders. Personal links between the commanders and solders were so strong that that when a general moved to a new post, their men would follow. This identification with commanders extended to martial training and methods as well (ie. spear methods being called, yue 'jia' spear). Here the reference is not to 'blood' family ties, as in a family village style, but rather to a 'military bond.' The martial arts of this Yue's army came from a great variety of regions, (very likely form the Henan, Hebei and Shanxi regions), all being absorbed and referred to as ‘Yue Jia’ wushu. This is why, I find the information concerning Yue Fu and Xingyi, in Jarek Szymanski’s article on his site very probable and reasonable:
" In 1838 he (Guo Weihan) went to Henan . . .together with Dai Wenliang and Dai Wenxiong (and) there learn(t) martial arts. In 1841 Niu Xixian, a (descendant of Niu Gao, one of the general's in Yue Fei's army. . .) came to Shijiadian and Guo Weihan and Dai brothers became his (Niu Xixian) disciples and leant martial arts from him."

r.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Yeah, I am in agreement with you there about Yue Fei.

The various lines of Yue Family martial arts are pretty similar to each other, no matter what province they are from, and also when I look at the specific moves of their forms or their loose techniques, they harken back to old martial arts of Song are, which again is Fan tzi and tong bei, with a dash of Shaolin Lohan.
Also, since Zhou Tong passed along his martial arts to people who taught many people, they must have turned "my teacher's teacher taught Yue Fei" over centuries to "my teacher's teacher was Yue Fei".

Between his general's passing on what they knew and
Yue Fei's sons passing on what they knew and Zhou Tong passing on what he knew, Yue Fei wound up getting all the credit so that these styles would look "cooler" to others.

[GeneChing]

It is too bad the Shaolin is abandoning him as is suggested by Gene's post elsewhere.

Shaolin is NOT abandoning Tamo at all. Let's read a little more carefully here. Shaolin now acknowledges that Tamo is mythological, but they are far from abandoning him. They are taking the same stance that most Zen scholars take on Tamo - that he was a legend and just be treated and RESPECTED as such. It's only either/or if you're a Decartean thinker. Thankfully, zennists are anything but.

As for Yue Fei, it's ironic how he ties into the Tamo myth. In one of the earliest, if not the earliest (17th century), documentable versions of Yijinjing, there is a preface by Niu Gao. The preface states that Yue Fei was instructed in this method and alludes that it contributed to his success. The preface is clearly a forgery, so only the most naive of martial researchers would place any lineage value on it. It reeks of influence of the popular novel, as does a lot of Yue Fei origin myths in the martial arts. This doesn't invalidate us venerating such legendary figures as our progenitors - legend is legend and has its place - it's just that you can only take such metaphors so far until reason forces you to acknowledge that their value is symbolic, not literal.

But you can tie all sorts of things together if you just dig deep enough. You can look at Wu Jingzi's Unofficial History of Scholars which attributes Yijinjing as a major factor in the training regimen of Feng Mingqi, a knight-errant loosely based upon a contemporary of Wu's Gan Fengchi, the allleged founder of BSL. That would be an inappropriate tie, but there's such a tradition of making founder claims in CMA that it's not too far fetched.

[Royal Dragon]

So was there ever a conclusion on where Wu Bu Quan comes from?

I know half of it is in Cha Fist #5, and I know the full thing is in one of the 10 modern Wushu sets as well.

Is this an ancient Cha fist beginners set, or something recent distilled form various Cha fist forms?