Superman

[Banjos_dad]

design sifu, I was waiting for someone to reference the old George Reeves version of superman.
I was going to say, I am leaning toward this pomaded, surly Superman as my favorite. His feats were nothing compared to the Salkind film versions of Christopher Reeves' Superman but then people did not expect as much then lol. It was enough to withstand a point-blank machine gun barrage. He was kind of mean though. He really took his work personally. You quoted the opening to the Superman tv show ( or serial films?? whatever they were... when i was a kid they were on tv already).... i could hear the scratchy Superman theme playing lol. silly huh?

btw. my "Shaolin" t-shirt is pretty much my favorite one, unless i am wrong, that's your artwork. Thanks for that...

However, I think if Canada, Mexico and The USA teamed up
poltically, economically and Militarily, then the rest of the world
is simply our oyster.

Now that's a superpower!

once again David ensconces the correct in a crystalline Fortress of Correctitude.

[@PLUGO]

Indeed that was from the George Reeves series...

an amuzing read on the various SUPERMEN can be found here

[The Willow Sword]

i've had alot of fun reading the posts here. Its amazing. from Superman American icon to existentialism to nazi'ism to Nietzche'ism to Communism.

i never really knew all that much about the internal workings of the superman character. What i was able to figure out from the character from a political and propaganda standpoint is similar to the post that stated that people in that depression era needed a hero to look up to and to pad the effects of being poor and depressed.

I didnt think that so many delved in to the dichotomy of a comic book character.

MY whole point about this thread was that the recent release of the movie took away that "the american way" and it was done so to pull in foreign markets that didnt really like our country.
Most people who go to see this movie will compare and look back to the christopher reeves version of superman that eclipsed and basically shadowed the 60's version of superman. Since Christopher struggled so hard to get better after his C1 got busted and miraculously survived it, people were eager to see how the character evolved on the screen and if it would do christopher justice(because in my opinion christopher reeves took tat character and made it his own and it hasnt been done since, until now).NOTE: i do NOT acknowledge the dumb A$$ Television series that have come out and made the character uhhhh "GAY", i hated the early Tv series and i equally hate the smallville BS.

For me the character doesnt symbolize any existential or communist or german nazi ideal of a ultimate man. To me and as a child seeing the movies i associated superman with basically what the original creation of the character was. An Alien being who crashes on earth and has super powers and does the right thing to protect those who are too weak to protect themselves. I was abused severely as a child and so the superman character who was impervious to everything bad got my imagination and my place of escape going strong, and as a result i was better able to deal with what was being thrown at me as a child.

anyway, great posts from everyone, even the ones who ive had clashes with in the past. See you people CAN post intelligently when you try

As always,TWS

[KC Elbows]

I just said it was a German idea, refering to the German philosopher who popularized it. MP was the one who brought up the nazis.

[@PLUGO]

i've had alot of fun reading the posts here. Its amazing. from Superman American icon to existentialism to nazi'ism to Nietzche'ism to Communism.

i never really knew all that much about the internal workings of the superman character. What i was able to figure out from the character from a political and propaganda standpoint is similar to the post that stated that people in that depression era needed a hero to look up to and to pad the effects of being poor and depressed.

I didnt think that so many delved in to the dichotomy of a comic book character.

MY whole point about this thread was that the recent release of the movie took away that "the american way" and it was done so to pull in foreign markets that didnt really like our country.
Most people who go to see this movie will compare and look back to the christopher reeves version of superman that eclipsed and basically shadowed the 60's version of superman. Since Christopher struggled so hard to get better after his C1 got busted and miraculously survived it, people were eager to see how the character evolved on the screen and if it would do christopher justice(because in my opinion christopher reeves took tat character and made it his own and it hasnt been done since, until now).NOTE: i do NOT acknowledge the dumb A$$ Television series that have come out and made the character uhhhh "GAY", i hated the early Tv series and i equally hate the smallville BS.

For me the character doesnt symbolize any existential or communist or german nazi ideal of a ultimate man. To me and as a child seeing the movies i associated superman with basically what the original creation of the character was. An Alien being who crashes on earth and has super powers and does the right thing to protect those who are too weak to protect themselves. I was abused severely as a child and so the superman character who was impervious to everything bad got my imagination and my place of escape going strong, and as a result i was better able to deal with what was being thrown at me as a child.

anyway, great posts from everyone, even the ones who ive had clashes with in the past. See you people CAN post intelligently when you try

As always,TWS

Well, it should be said that Superman was essentailly the first superhero. It was the creation of this character that heralded the creation of a new genre, the Superhero (prior to that charactors like The Phantom, Doc Savage & the Shadow did exist as a sort of proto-superhero but were still rooted deeply in "pulp" conventions). It was also Superman that shouldered the boom in a then new industry; comicbook publishing. Superman is not a super-hero he's the super-hero.

Alot has been written about the meaning and themes used in the creation of this mythos. It could be said that he's popular culture's first illeagal alien, depending of course on which origin is read. In some cases baby Kal-El is brought to an orphanage before being adopted by the Kents. In other (more recent) tellings, the Kents simply tell everyone he's their baby, born during the long winter season; commiting some level of fraud in the process . . . how American.

Undoubtedly the superman myth is not only a depression era wish full-fillment. Its also a great retelling of the American dream. Young immigrant (Kal El) come to the U.S.A. reinvents himself (as Clark Kent) and persues his very personal definition of success.

I'm not sure you're reasoning WRT removing "the American way" is all that substantial. Is this something you read somewhere? Or are you quoting the character Perry White in the latest film?

That phrase was included in the then most current version of Superman, the George Reeves TV series. It was being produced in the 50's amidst McCarthy's reign of stupidity. How could they not place an emphasis on "the American Way" on a show who's lead character was from someplace outside the U.S.A.?

As this myth is being cast in a modern era it's of course going to reflect modern ideals, in this case a globalized society. Still there's no doub that Superman is as much a U.S. icon as Micky Mouse. More so even than say, Captain America.

I'll agree with Chris Reeves being a true modern manifestation of the Superman ideal. Director Bryan Singer was truely wise in his choice to honor those previous Films; particularly the first & second. In actuality a major plot point in the most current film could not be believable if not for a significant portion of the 2nd film.

What made the current film work (for me) was how it allowed the viewer to draw from whatever memories they may have of the previous films with-out having to have seen any of them to enjoy this version. Superman may or may not have flown around the earth fast enough to turn back time (as the Chris Reeves film had him do dispite any logic or lack there of) but he certainly made an enemy of Lex.

This film remained true to the Superman mythos as presented (almost weekly) by DC comics. Yet it made no effort to discount previous film version, as Batman Begins looks to achieve. THis could have been the same Superman that fought that Solor powered dude on the moon in IV or hung out with Richard Prior in III. I prefer to think not but either way it didn't deminish my enjoyment of the film.

The Lois and Clark TV series kept my attention for only a handful of episodes and I've yet to catch Smallville. However here's an amuzing read on Superman as a sex symbol, it might prove entertaining.

As for any extended reading of Superman: Check out SUPERMAN: RED SON for the reasons mentioned above. Also have a look at DC: NEW FRONTEERS for a modern view of a superman set in the 50's-60's. If you want to spend less than 5$ go out and pick up any issue of All Star Superman. Great Great stuff.

[@PLUGO]

some more info on "...the american way" can be found here

[The Willow Sword]

I'm not sure you're reasoning WRT removing "the American way" is all that substantial. Is this something you read somewhere

?

well i had seen the movie and the line wasnt included but only once but fleetingly and is very easy to miss. then quite strangely enough the local news did a puff peice on the movie and they focused on that very thing. apparently it got some scrutiny from the patriotic groups who felt that the exclusion of "the american way" in the superman character somehow took away from the character itself. it was then reported by some of the british team who was part of the movie making that the line was taken out because they wanted to appeal to foreign markets, especially those foreign ones that do not really like america.

anyway i kinda agreed with the story even though it bordered real heavily on the right wing propaganda machine(and would also explain why a right wing run TV station such as the FOX network{where i saw the puff peice) would run a story like that.

anyway i liked the movie and i thought that maybe there was some lack of integrity on the movie makers part to pull in foreign cash by eliminating that line that has been part of the superman icon for many many years.

Peace, Yeah ya war mongers, PEACE,,,TWS

[mantis108]

Are we talking, by reinventing Superman over and over again(practically a marriage of modern day mytho and media), it is to some degree revisiting the "American Experience" for Americans in particular? BTW, I see comics today has the same capacity of conventional media. If so, It would be interesting to see how the world and the critics view and receive this latest updated version.

Mantis108

[@PLUGO]

I enjoyed the film as well.

TWS thanks for clarifying what you meant. And I think we sort of are talking about how the Superman mythos does seem to change and evolve with the times. Considering this character was first created in the mid 30's alot has changed since then.

Visually there are many changes that have happened. The costume design has changed. Even his mighty \S/ has seen sevaral changes. Look here.

As mentioned in the above article the "the American Way." has not always been there. Interestingly Truth & Justice always have, meanwhile such things as Tolerance have come and gone. "all that stuff" seems suitably post-modern to me. But of course tastes may vary...

Interesting that the far right seem upset that Superman can no longer be easily used as a icon for a new American Century.

[DouglasFir]

I just said it was a German idea, refering to the German philosopher who popularized it. MP was the one who brought up the nazis.

If you ever want to read the closest thing you'll get to a nazi Superman read Alan Moore's "Miracleman" - over the course of the story he begins to see himself as a better race than humans and by the end he has created a new world shaped by himself where he tells people how to live their lives to be happy... of course that's a very simple recap of a complex story!

The thing is that throughout the story Miracleman is the victim and later the hero and ultimately he is a likeable character... but when you look at the way his character develops and what he does to the human race... basically he's a big old flying nazi!

[KC Elbows]

If you ever want to read the closest thing you'll get to a nazi Superman read Alan Moore's "Miracleman" - over the course of the story he begins to see himself as a better race than humans and by the end he has created a new world shaped by himself where he tells people how to live their lives to be happy... of course that's a very simple recap of a complex story!

The thing is that throughout the story Miracleman is the victim and later the hero and ultimately he is a likeable character... but when you look at the way his character develops and what he does to the human race... basically he's a big old flying nazi!

I'm a big fan of Alan Moore's stuff. I've been considering checking out MM, just hadn't had the time. He did a Superman Annual that was really good, probably the best issue of that comic I'd read.

Watchmen is in preproduction at this point. Moore automatically dissavows himself of films of his work, but this doesn't mean that they were bad experiences, he simply doesn't seem to want to deal with film at all. Not sure if it's true, but I heard he donates much of the profits from films of his work to the illustrators.

I'm wanting to also check out his issues of Supreme.

Thanks for the lowdown on MM.

[@PLUGO]

Alot of people really like Moore's SUPREME for it's riff on all things Silver Age about Superman. His DC comics work has been collected in a trade Paper Back called DC UNIVERSE: THE STORIES OF ALAN MOORE. It has a handful of his Superman storys (drawn by the ledendary Curt Swan) plus the BATAMN: Killing Joke and some green lanturn and green arrow stories. Great work from a time before he began deconstructing such Genres.

From his newer stuff I'd recomend TOP 10 and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which should have been rated R as a Film. This was also the film that turned him off of Hollywood all together.

In short some L.A. screenwriters Sued the Producers of LXG as well as Moore himself for "stealing" concepts they included in a filmscript titled "Cast of Characters." The changes made to Moore's story for the film adapation were apparently taken from that script, but the writers still sought to sue Moore as a part of that lawsuit. Prior to this point Moore was simply disinterested in what Hollywood did to his works. After the legal accusations (which he was found innocent of) Moore stated that we wanted nothing to do with Hollywood and any money that would normally go to him for such films as CONSTANTINE, Watchmen etc... should just go to the artists who Co-created the work.

The recent V for Vendetta film was said to be "based on he Graphic Novel by David Lloyd."

[KC Elbows]

I'm not sure I've ever seen you make a post without a link in it. My faith in the world is shattered.

[@PLUGO]

I'm not sure I've ever seen you make a post without a link in it. My faith in the world is shattered.

oh man... I better fix that

[KC Elbows]

I feel much better.