Tension and working out

[Gangsterfist]

Okay I have heard this debated over and over and have had all kinds of different answers.

Does working out make your body tense?

Does the tension stay there as long as you are building muscle mass?

Do you lose flexibility when you gain muscle?

Do you have to spend more time undoing the tension when you work out?

What types of work outs are best for martial arts in the sense of not making your body tense?


I ask these because I touched hands with a weight lifter body build guy not too long ago and he was extremely tense. He was in very good shape and was way stronger than me, and I admit I had some trouble dealing with his strength but when we chi sao'd I could feel his every move because his tension. He said he lifted weights a few times a week but recently had slowed it down to like 1-2 times per week.

Thoughts?

[Toby]

Pretty much no to all. But here's the thing - I find myself using my strength, and using it 100%. I mean, when I go to use force, I find it more difficult to tense 50% than I do to tense 100%. When I apply a technique, I have less sensitivity because I rely on strength too much. Just as well, because my skills suck . I'm learning to use skill and structure more, but it's kind of hard. My reflex is to tense for everything.

[Gangsterfist]

were you in az last weekend lol?

I chi sao'd this really strong guy and I admit it was hard to deal with him in chi sao when he came at me full force. I felt it everytime though since he was so tense. However, using strenght in chi sao defeats the purpose of the chi sao all together.

Right now i do 100 to 150 push ups, 300 crunches, some forearm/wrists, legs lifts, and stance training. I don't use weights. I dont want my whole body to be really tense.

I have met a lot of people who have worked out a lot and gotten real muscular and say they know how to relax and say they understand but they don't. They are completely tense all over and I can feel the tension in their back through their arm sometimes on the really tense guys.

I am just curious if this is related to certain work out regimes, since I have mostly come across this in body builders.

I admit my hypothesis could be wrong, since I am not a personal trainer or anything of the likes.

Can anyone accurately describe muscle tensions from certain work outs? And what is recomended for people who want to remain relaxed.

[Toby]

Not me. I'm in Oz. Yeah, I would fit the profile of the guy you're talking about. I have got a fair bit of strength over an untrained guy and I do tend to use it. However, whenever I go up against my seniors, my strength yields nothing. In fact I end up tiring myself out. I believe that it's due to their superior structure which I feel I'm on the verge of getting myself briefly at times. I've been told my strength isn't a bad thing and will continue to give me an advantage when I learn how and when to apply it. But it will make it difficult for me to learn certain sensitivity aspects.

Re the tension - it's not a permanent thing. I don't stay tense all day, although sometimes I'll be on an adrenal high for a short while after lifting (< hour). But whenever I apply myself in class I do tense. I've been lifting for so long I couldn't say if I would be better off (less tense) without lifting or not. Dunno. But I wouldn't attribute use of tension solely to lifting. I'd say I could get around it if I tried. Here's two ways - I find myself "listening" more with closed eyes if the drill allows it. I also will tend to be more relaxed after a significant warmup (esp with upper body work - pushups, chain punches, burpees, whatever, but lots).

[FngSaiYuk]

In my experience with heavy weight training, a good amount of stretching and relaxation and meditation prevent muscles and the body from getting 'tense'. If your training gets you tense, then relax... Stretch your muscles and focus on relaxing the muscles. Massage and loosen them up. Do this immediately so your muscles get used to their 100% use in heavy strength training and immediate relaxation.

Oh and also try speed drills... LOTS of speed drills. And on the opposite end, tai chi, chikung, meditation, etc. Whatever you can to relax.

[FooFighter]

Gangsterfist

I will do my best to answer your questions.

Does working out make your body tense?

Yes but there is good tonus and bad tonus.

Does the tension stay there as long as you are building muscle mass?

Yes, but there are two ways to residual tension: hyperthrophy and neuromuscular training. In Power to the People by Pavel Tstasouline, tension or tonus is the result on residual tension left over by neuromuscular training. Remember there is a difference between good tonus and bad tonus.

Do you lose flexibility when you gain muscle?

The myth of muscle building will decrease flexbility is incorrect. There are plenty of meat heads who are like rubberbands. So actually you lose flexbility if you do not expose your body to specific range of motion.

Do you have to spend more time undoing the tension when you work out?

Tension and Relaxation are different but one in the same coin or like yin and yang. Both is neccessary for optimal performance. You can not be too relax, no strength. You can not be too tense, then you can not move. People often build tension through strength conditioning, but forget to develop the opposite, e.g. "softwork" and etc.. Undoing tension is a matter of mental and emotional skills and discipline. Most people are ignorant on such topics. I think there are manys exercises to undo negative residual muscular tension such as Vibrational drills, BodyFlow, and Warrior Wellness (www.clubbell.Tv) .

What types of work outs are best for martial arts in the sense of not making your body tense?

I would recommend BodyFlow and learning Peformance Breathing
or doing technical and tactical training in a controled very slow and non threaten manner. Most people do not pay attention to their breathing in combat or real life violent encounters. I would research breathing in relation to performance. By controling your breathing, you can control your tension and emotional tension as
well. Doing softwork which I described above will help refine your technical/tactical skills and also help your body flow better, and maintain optimal structure, timming, and postioning. When you are under stress and feel emotional threaten your body tenses up usually and your skills goes to crap. That is why I would NOT recommend any speed drills or any kind of power exercises for performance at this point. It is good to combine hardwork and softwork in your tecnhical/tactial training. What is hardwork in technical training is pretty relative in wing chun. Please checkout Duncan Leung's tape 2 and 3 to see what I mean.

I am a student of wing chun such as yourself. I have learned from Sifu Alan Lee and Sibak Duncan Leung that Chi Sao is a game that teaches simulutaneous attack and coverage, structure,
continue body flow, and feeling. It is not a sparring match and if you were trying to over power or equally match your partner's strength in chi sao then you are novice. I wish I could explain this better and I would highly recommend that you get Duncan Leung tape 1 and 2 which will enhance your chi sao knowledge and better explain what attemping now. I sux at explaining wing chun gung fu. I am no expert on this matter and people tend to not understand me. I am sorry for any misunderstandings.

It is okay to use power against power in chi sao as Sifu and Sibak has taught me but the lesson is to use proper coverage, leverage, timming, and position to cut into his defense. There is plenty of lessons and explaination in Duncan Leung's tape 1 and 2 on this matter. It better to practice and see gung fu then talking about it. You will need to use strength for a moment,but dont keep using your strength (remember relaxation/tension of the same coin) all the time then you will weaken and fail. When you chi sao with this man who was stronger than you, did you consider your timming, structure, and positioning?

Best of Luck. Your success is our success.

[Gangsterfist]

In terms of chi sao you can nuetralize the incoming force with forware pressure, you can also yield to it, retain it, and use it against your opponet. Its all situational. I am not an expert either I have many years ahead of me still in my training. This opponet just happend to be a lot stronger than me. I am about 5'10" 160lbs ish (havent weighed myself in a while but its usually 155 ~160) and I have a decent amount of muscle. I do work out by doing what I described above. This guy was around 6'4" ish and probably weighed over 200lbs and was pretty solid when it comes to muscle mass. He was a powerlifter and a lot stronger than me. I held my own against him, but I admitted sometimes it was just plain out hard to control him with his brute strength. He did use it to his advantage and would always try to put in a str VS str situation, so it was also his tactic. When I applied pressure to him he did back off a bit and got nervous (I am assuming because he had a hard time feeling what I was doing, due to his tension).

I want to gain strength, but I don't want to gain any tension. I already stretch and do some basic taiji and qigong meditiation plus the SLT every day.

I want to do a work out that build optimal muscle with the least amount of tension ratio. I hope that clears it up, thanks for the responses though its been very insightful.

[FooFighter]

GF:

It is pretty hard to assess your chi sao knowlege and skills over the computer. If we were in person and we play gung fu, then I would know your level and understanding likewise I would know my own level and ability. If you want to get better in Chi Sao than you will have specialized in chi sao training. Since chi Sao is actual softwork it will not help you very much in actual fighting in my opinion. So dont get complicated in doing extra work to improve your Chi Sao. More time could be use in other areas of your training. I would suggest again that you get Duncan Leung's tapes 1/2, view it, and try to apply it with a partner. It is good to have help and support from your Si Hings and Si Fu in handling someone who bigger and stronger than you in chi sao. I am sure they can be of some service.

One of the biggest lessons that Sifu Alan Lee has taught me is a wing chun student must assume that his opponent has the adavatange of size, strength, and speed when fighting. With this paradigm, it will teaches you to be humble even tho you may have the greater physical attritubes, it helps you train or come up with a smarter game plan or more clever tactic and or a greater efficent means to win in the end. If you based your gung fu on size, strength, and speed alone than your gung fu skills will only be shallow and without substance in your older years. Trust me that bigger dudes dont get the finer details of their arts like smaller dudes look at Helio Grace and Yip Man for example. Good Luck. Your success is our success.

[IronFist]

Part of the reason stuff like this comes up is because you have a trained, non-weight lifter chi sao'ing with an untrained weight lifter. The trained guy knows how to relax and the untrained guy doesn't, so the trained guy therefore assumes it's because he doesn't lift weights. An untrained guy who doesn't lift weights is probably tense as well, altho maybe not as tense as the weight lifter. But the thing is, lifting weights puts you more in tune with your muscles and you become aware of what's going on and when (this happens over time, not right away). So a weight lifter would be more apt to introduce tension into the exercise because it's what's normal for him. It's kind of like if you take a weightlifter who has no striking experience and without giving him any instruction tell him to hit a punching bag as hard as he can. He'll probably throw a slow punch with every single muscle in his body tensed up. It's not because weightlifting "makes you tense," but because that's how he's used to doing things.

People said I did the same thing when I started grappling. Regardless of what position I was in, I would be tense all over because that's what I was used to.

Structure is not undefeatable, and strength is not undefeatable. You need both.

[FngSaiYuk]

IronFist,

So are you saying that a trained weightlifter can be relaxed (non-'tense')? If so, I would agree... has less to do with the actual weightlifting training then the relaxation training - or martial arts training.

[FooFighter]

Iron:

You made a good point and agree with you. I believe strength and structure is both equally importantly in atheletic performance as well as martial arts. I assumed GF's was playing chi sao with another student of wing chun? There are wing chuners who are meat heads aka body builders and there are many wing chuners who are tensed by choice and like using tension when playing chi sao because that was the way they were taught.

I have touched hands with many different branches of wing chuners within the NYC area. I remembered they was a person who was than me larger and had greater tension when we played chi sao. I got him to change into larp sao position which I was felt more confident in and due to my superior structure and timming I larp the crap out of him (covered and attacked him) and
was able to turn his tension against him.

He was amazed at my larp Sao and asked me who taught me his larp sao. That same person joined my schoo. While I agree that strength is vital. In chi sao I will say those who have the greater/tighter structure is the better player.

[Gangsterfist]

I can relax and I do agree that strength is good to have.

My question was and still is....


What are some good work out methods that help develope muscle with the least amount of tension. Ripping your muscles apart so they can heal and grow back stronger sounds like it would cause tension IMO.

Lets leave chi sao out of it for a while lol I was using it as an example to what I thought may be a ill side effect from weightlifting

[FooFighter]

GF:

You need to develop good tension in order to perform better. I think you should look into Pavel Tstasouline's Power to the Power or Naked Warrior (www.dragondoor.com). Doing PTP or NW, will help develop maxium tension and strength without bulk and if you combine it with proper recovery training such as "BodyFlow" or "Warrior Wellness" (www.clubbell.tv) I think it would be favorable in your goals. Best of luck in your training. Your success is our success.

Bao

[Gangsterfist]

Cool im on my lunch break at work now so I don't have time to check it all out but I will once I get home after work.

I do not want to develope tension and lose my sensitivity and at the same time I want to develope strength. I will play with all these ideas and see what fits me best.

Thanks for the replies!

[FooFighter]

Gangsterfist

I can relate to your goals in wanting to improve your performance in wing chun gung fu. Therefore your goals is similar to my goals. My success is yours as well; likewise your success is our success. We must share our experiences and work together improving our skills and community. I hope I can be of service to you.

Presently if you have "flow" in your martial performace than you do not have to be concern in developing tension and losing any sensitivity. At this point if you have flow, you would ideally want to focus on wing chun specific strength conditioning and creating wing chun techniques that suits your body type.

However, if you do not have "flow" or lack sensitivity then maybe you have to take neccessary steps in order removing these hindrances from yourself before you consider a serious strength conditioning program. Coach Scott Sonnon (www.clubbell.tv) is an interesting talented educator and martial artist. He offers many heavy duty richly dense programs that specifically addressing optimal martial performance for warriors and I would highly encourage you to research his body of work.

Lastly, it is quite possible to develop functional strength without compromising flexibility, sensitivity, and flow. I wish you luck, brother. I hope you will research the information given to you. Remember, your success is our success. I am sure you are smart and talented enough to formulate your own solutions.

Your Brother in Wing Chun,
Bao