Tension and working out

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
IronFist,

So are you saying that a trained weightlifter can be relaxed (non-'tense')?

Absolutely.

Here's the thing to remember: relaxation has it's place, but many martial artists (wing chunners especially) are anti-tension nazis. Now let's review a couple basic physciology principles:

1. You CANNOT move without some tension (unless you're falling with gravity). WC people like to say "don't use muscle. Move with your tendons instead," which brings me to my next point:

2. Tendons are not responsible for movement. Tendons help hold you together, but they don't move you. I don't care what anyone's sifu told them.

3. Too much tension may slow you down, but no tension means you'd be laying on the floor. Even standing up and not doing anything requires tension. See point 1.

That being said, I think many WC'ers would do well to take some of that time they spend doing sensitivity/relaxation training and go do something to get stronger instead. Sure, your chi-sao might suffer, but how much chi-sao are you doing in a fight, anyway?

Oops, I bet I just offended someone

[IronFist]

Originally posted by FooFighter
Lastly, it is quite possible to develop functional strength without compromising flexibility,

Yup. Weight training doesn't hinder flexibility. It may even help it, or at least make you less likely to get injured.

There are pro bodybuilders who can do full splits. Pro bodybuilders are pretty much the bulkiest people on the planet when it comes to muscle size, so if some of them can do the splits that should prove to you that it doesn't hurt flexibility.

[Toby]

Iron has used his superior training and sensitivity to defeat the correct's brute strength. Nice posts!

Gangsterfist, you seem to be under the misapprehension that if you lift, you'll get all this residual tension that sticks around. It doesn't happen like that at all. I tense maximally to lift. I tense in WC drills because I suck. But I don't tense the rest of the day. It's about learning to control your tension which is a whole separate issue from lifting. Lifting won't affect that at all i.e. it won't desensitise you if you already have good sensitivity. OTOH if you have no sensitivity lifting might preclude learning it. Anyway, Iron's pretty much said it all.

Good thread.

[FooFighter]

IronFist

Good post on relaxation/tension To Mr. Suk but did not I explained this before to Gangerfist? I too have wrote Chi Sao isnt neccesarry for fighting and I wasnt offended what you wrote about chi sao. Just my observation, I think majority of young male
students of martial arts are too tense when they are under stress and that is why there are many anti tension wing chun nazis. However, there are many wing chun sifu who agree with what you and I believe in. My sifu does not favor chi sao as the standard of wing chun ability, but think fighting application should be the standard of someone's wing chun ability.

Bao

[Gangsterfist]

So, I am a tension nazi huh? he he he


Okay, Reguardless of what everyone has to say, working out does cause tension. Depending on the work out regime it will very. This is because the muscle is getting over worked and it will be tense until it heals.

I for one, love being able to sense things when in contact with someone. I agree being good at chi sao and being good at fighting are 2 completely different things. OTOH, I think that the sensitivity that chi sao builds is a great attribute to have as a fighter.

When I first started wing chun my shoulders were so tense they would tire out after doing like 300 chain punches. I can do that now no problem. I have finally started to learn to relax and it took me a long time (and currently and still working out tensions in other areas) to get my body to relax where it is. I don't want to sacrifice any of my hard work I put into it.

At the same time, I want to be fit. Right now I will stick to my push ups, sit ups, crunches, forearms, pull ups, and other calestenics. Maybe, I may get back into weight training but I dunno. I lifted before, so I am not totally virgin to it.

This has been a good thread so far. One thing I will come out and state is that a few weight lifters I have met say they know how to relax, and have this misconception about what exactly relaxation really is. They tell me, yeah I am relaxed but they are really infact very tense. This is something I cannot tell you how to do, its something that must be shown and felt. So, there will be a huge communication barrier on an internet message board.

However, keep the info coming though, so far its all been good.

[FooFighter]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
This has been a good thread so far. One thing I will come out and state is that a few weight lifters I have met say they know how to relax, and have this misconception about what exactly relaxation really is. They tell me, yeah I am relaxed but they are really infact very tense. This is something I cannot tell you how to do, its something that must be shown and felt. So, there will be a huge communication barrier on an internet message board.

GF: I agree with you on this point and again I wrote it before: "Do you have to spend more time undoing the tension when you work out?"

Tension and Relaxation are different but one in the same coin or like yin and yang. Both is neccessary for optimal performance. You can not be too relax, no strength. You can not be too tense, then you can not move. People often build tension through strength conditioning, but forget to develop the opposite, e.g. "softwork" and etc.. Undoing tension is a matter of mental and emotional skills and discipline. Most people are ignorant on such topics. I think there are manys exercises to undo negative residual muscular tension such as Vibrational drills, BodyFlow, and Warrior Wellness (www.clubbell.Tv) .

Tension is not the enemy. Relaxation is not the secret. Knowing how to use to both T and R properly is the Way.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
When I first started wing chun my shoulders were so tense they would tire out after doing like 300 chain punches. I can do that now no problem.

I'd be willing to bet that a bigger problem was lack of endurance in your shoulders, which you developed over time by doing chain punches. SAID (specific adaptation to imposed demand). When a marathoner goes on his first run ever in his life, he probably can't even run one mile. Is it because his legs have too much tension? Or is it because hasn't built the necessary endurance yet.

I have finally started to learn to relax and it took me a long time (and currently and still working out tensions in other areas) to get my body to relax where it is.

I'm sure relaxing is part of it, because I have experience with that in grappling as well. But as I said above, for something specific like doing chain punches, it's probably more to do with endurance and less to do with actually carrying tension in the muscles.

At the same time, I want to be fit. Right now I will stick to my push ups, sit ups, crunches, forearms, pull ups, and other calestenics.

You know your body doesn't know the difference between bodyweight exercises and weighted ones. Your muscles just know resistance or no resistance; contracting or relaxing. Bodyweight exercises just tend to be lower in regards to how hard your muscles have to contract (ie. doing a pushups vs. benching twice your bodyweight) and therefore people think there's some fundamental difference between the two. You could do 50 pushups, or you could do 50 reps of decline benchpress with 65% of your bw (or whatever the equivalent is) and, as far as your muscles are concerned, it would be pretty much the same thing.

One thing I will come out and state is that a few weight lifters I have met say they know how to relax, and have this misconception about what exactly relaxation really is.

Do you find that weight lifters are less relaxed on average than untrained (in MA) non-weight lifters? I bet you notice it more with weight lifters because they have more strength to throw around than non-lifters, and they would be more inclined to use it.

[Daredevil]

Hey peeps.

Just tried explaining this (muscle buildup doesn't hinder flexibility) to a couple of resistant friends. Heh. Know any links to studies or resources on the web for actual researched information on this subject? I'd love to see some!

Would you still say, btw, that building muscle without stretching will hinder flexibility? Just interested in the views as presented here.

Thanks.

[bungle]

Hi
I've been bored lately and felt like replying to a number of topics but find what i'm writing so "out there" that i end up leaving it.

Anyway. I've decided to throw a spanner in the works. From a qi gong point of view weightlifting will HINDER you UNLESS you do it properly.

Now. In theory you can take ANY action and there will be no karmic repucutions if it was the "real" you doing the action rather than your ego.

Basically when you lift weights you have an intention and it's difficult. The more difficult something is, BTW, the more the ego is involved. Now you're straining hard and feeling pain when you lift weights. Well, most people don't know what to do with this pain so they try to block it out and stuff it down. Push it back into their minds. Back down and empowered.

Every time you react to a desire you empower it. So this negative painful energy is being stuffed down into your subconcious and insidiously effecting your entire performance without you being aware of it.

The way to neutralize the effect of this is to somehow release this energy. Now i use the release technique but since you guys come from a chinese ma background i recommend qi gong.

So, IF you release the strain and the pain as it comes up or after with qi gong then any negative effects of lifting wieghts will be neutralized.

The best weightlifters and powerlifters learn to deal with this pain better than others. However, they are still limiting themselves to having to deal with pain.

It's all STRESS. Stress is EGO. EGO = failure OR unsatisfactory and difficult success. Basically.

As always. You gotta prove this to yourself. I always recommend www.releasetechnqiue.com . Learn it and release while you work out and see wot happens.

Told you it was far out stuff...

[FooFighter]

bungle

I dont know much Qi Gung but I do not think it is necessary to know Qi Gung to understand how to strength train proper or how to prevent it from HINDERing performance. Likewise I would
expect most soft artists to practice hard training to make themselves improve in their play. In general, I think internal martial artists have a prejudice against external and hard work. On the other hand, Iron meat heads or Shaolin based styles believe soft/internalists are a bloody joke.

Please pardon me and dont take this as offense or an attack. I didnt understand your thesis because you used some eastern term. Can you explain it again for me? Let me explain to you that I understand the mind/body connection and its bio-loop. To me in my value system "tension" is a good thing and my subconscious values "tension" as good and not a negative when I am performing an exercise such as a deadlift. Therefore just because I am thinking tension before I lift, I'm not empowering any negative energy. In fact, I am generating confidence and positive energy in my performance. For example, if I was doing something which is causing me problem or stress and I am not feeling confident which in turns I'm "thinking" negatively and using improperly tension than I can see how that mental mal intent could indirectly poison myself.

How I am learning to release this negative energy or tension from my performance in order to get of the way for FLOW is through something I am learning from Coach Sonnon's programs called "BodyFlow" and "Warrior Wellness" (www.clubbell.tv). He explains much of eastern softwork without the rationalistic mumbo jumbo eastern metaphysical double talk if you know what I mean. Good luck with your training. Your success is our success.

Bao

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Basically when you lift weights you have an intention and it's difficult.)

a good start. If your art relies primly on sensitivity, whole body connectedness in usage its extremely hard to let go of the idea of lifting or moving objects with tension, strong intent and isolated body movement.

It is also very hard to incorporate and use idea of either leading the mind or breaking someones balance as a major strategy in the same arts.

Back to intention, few people realize that the thought of movement causes small movements even before one is aware of it. So if where talking about sensitivity to movement, the build up of tension prior to the lift, wt training would tend to deminse this. As in all things the only real way to know is to try it.


Soft work? Any good taiji program will teach the same ideas.

[Toby]

Originally posted by bungle
Basically when you lift weights you have an intention and it's difficult. The more difficult something is, BTW, the more the ego is involved. Now you're straining hard and feeling pain when you lift weights. Well, most people don't know what to do with this pain so they try to block it out and stuff it down. Push it back into their minds. Back down and empowered.

Dunno about ego being involved. Pain helps, not hinders. IMO powerlifting is a good way to gain a sort of internal strength. I'm talking about compound exercises that rely on the whole body working as a unit. Failure comes for me at the end of a weight cycle. I accept it, but don't repress it. It motivates me to try again another time, and helps me push my limits.

[bamboo_ leaf]

Its very problematic using words like internal strength to define something like internal strength, which many have differing opinions on.

The quality of fan song (loose body) is one that few people actually get to. I have met many taiji people including my self who still have parts in their bodies that will not release tension or change from empty to full. as one poster pointed out many seem to feel that they have achived this when in fact they have not.

I have also met people who can manifest this, its like touching nothing, they can remain in one spot not because they cannot be moved, but because there is nothing to apply ones force against. This is a very different idea then what most people think of as rooting.

The degree of benefit that lifting, bodywork or any training has on ones practice really depends on what the basic idea of the practice is. To the question of weather residue tension is left in the body form these practices I would say yes, even some people who practiced yoga that i have worked with where tight inside.

What are called soft or internal arts are quiet hard to do, physically quite hard, why? For most people there is just to much tension in the body. It takes awhile to really be able to fansong into the postures and maintain this state throughout any body movement. it is the work of many yrs of hard practice.

[IronFist]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
Its very problematic using words like internal strength to define something like internal strength

What would you call it then?

[bamboo_ leaf]

It’s not what it is called but rather what does it mean, how is it manifested. When we talk of strength, using this term all strength could be defined as internal as it all comes from inside the body.

The use of the word external is used to define things that can be seen and readily understood, most can agree with. The use of internal as shown in this discussion can mean many different things to different people depending on level, understanding and exposer to those who can use it.


Until an agreement is reached by those talking about what it is and is not, it would be hard to really say what is and is not good for the development of it.