Question about Yang Shao Hou's Tai Chi

[bamboo_ leaf]

One day while Lu Chan was working in a local grain store, a rude man came into the Tai He pharmacy next to where Lu Chan was working. The man wanted to buy some expensive herbs, but was only willing to pay a cheap price. The man shouted and waved
his fists.

The next thing Lu Chan saw was the man being thrown into the street without any effort by the pharmacy owner. Lu Chan felt this was quite odd for a person to be able to do such a feat without the use of force. The name of the pharmacy owner was Chen De Hu.

After a few days had passed, Lu Chan built up enough courage and went to Chen De Hu to ask to become his student. Chen was at first fairly cautious, but after seeing that Lu Chan was upright and honest, he told Lu Chan he was from the Chen Village (Chen
Jia Gou) in Wen Xian County of Henan Province. He said there were many people who studied Tai Chi Chuan in the village. He also explained that his teacher was the famous Tai Chi Chuan master, Chen Chang Xing.

Upon hearing this, Lu Chan was very excited
and immediately wanted Chen De Hu to introduce him to Chen Chang Xing.

http://users.cybercity.dk/~ccc6881/history.html

a couple of interesting points that people seem to forget.

In some histories Yang knew or practiced some arts before learning the chen style.

Taiji would not be called taiji until after the propagation of the style through the yang family even the yang family did not call it taiji in the begining. I doubt that a chen family member would refer to their art as taiji at this time.

If we view that the man makes the art, Yang must have been highly skilled and understood many things that apparently some of the Chen members did not or did not practice at that time. Stories record that he was supposed to have beat some of the chen family members in a contest befor leaving.

later he would change what he learned to reflect his own ideas and accumplishments. weather it still retains the essense of the chen style or not depends on ones views and understandings of the chen style.

This is not to say the yang style or any style of taiji is better then the others, I view them as just variations on a theme with the chen style being a starting point depending on which histories one follows.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

that is exactly the history I had come across about yang lu chan.

shurb-

you said-The reason I asked you to give it a rest is that you are digging a bigger hole every time you post. Your total lack of understanding and knowledge is pathetic.


I am not digging anything but sticking to the discussion. i am humble to discussion and other people views, your personal attacks dont phase me and dont be jealous of my understanding and knowledge. like bob dylan said best- "dont criticize what you cant understand"

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
If we view that the man makes the art, Yang must have been highly skilled and understood many things that apparently some of the Chen members did not or did not practice at that time. Stories record that he was supposed to have beat some of the chen family members in a contest befor leaving.

That's conjecture, therefore useless in regards to understanding this stuff today.

later he would change what he learned to reflect his own ideas and accumplishments. weather it still retains the essense of the chen style or not depends on ones views and understandings of the chen style.

....and whether or not the essence of what YLC did has been accurately transmitted down to the many direct "lineages" to him, would potentially address this issue more accurately. Unfortunately, there seems to be about ten different versions of "the real" Old Yang floating around out there, all wildly different form one another. Smell a rat? I sure as hell do.

What's even worse about these types is that they don't train beyond "free" push hands. They do not spar either. They do not ever seem to put thier views or skills to any sort of tests. I seriously doubt that YLC trained as weakly as most of these "heirs" to his line. There is no such thing as moral victory if you are to call your Taiji a MARTIAL art.

[Buddy]

Ma writes:
"I am not digging anything but sticking to the discussion. i am humble to discussion and other people views,"

And saying STFU is just a happy-go-lucky response. Nothing wrong with basic martial art training but it ain't "internal" body method. That you didn't know the difference was pointed out to you, but you took offense. Your time, your dime. They're yours to waste.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(Unfortunately, there seems to be about ten different versions of "the real" Old Yang floating around out there, all wildly different form one another. Smell a rat? I sure as hell do.

What's even worse about these types is that they don't train beyond "free" push hands. They do not spar either. They do not ever seem to put thier views or skills to any sort of tests. I seriously doubt that YLC trained as weakly as most of these "heirs" to his line. There is no such thing as moral victory if you are to call your Taiji a MARTIAL art.)


That’s for each of us to decide, weather something is a martial art or not depends on ones own views and rezones for training. This is just a little history draw your own conclusions don’t expect others to buy off on it, I don’t expect it.


(That's conjecture, therefore useless in regards to understanding this stuff today)

its interesting to read but does little in the way of understanding it. understanding is by direct experience, if your experience is not what you expect keep looking until you find it.

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Thanks for passionately sticking to the discussion in a profound way to flood us with knowledge.

Buddy:
I apologize for the stfu. My internet ability is limited but my passion for the Taijiquan art isnt. It is like rowing up a river. I dont plan on flowing down stream right now. Its about always improving my ability and honesty. This might mean studying from many sources of teachers instead of just one.

zhai jian!

Matt

[Buddy]

Matt,
Fair enough. I'm a bagua guy so I'm not much help. I think I understand how the basic body method works that seems to be common to all 'internal' arts. Once you have a good felt-sense (meaning do you 'get' it in your body) of what that is, things will fall into place much quicker. It's easier (IMO) to get than some might say but you have to have someone able and, of course, willing to show you.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi,
Perhaps Yang Lu Chan were able to best the chens because of the enormous size difference I read somewhere that he was about 300 pounds.

I also heard the story about him learning some form of tai chi that was older than the chen style which was directly from san zhan feng at Wu Dang temple.

[bamboo_ leaf]

(I also heard the story about him learning some form of tai chi that was older than the chen style which was directly from san zhan feng at Wu Dang temple.)

a point I feel lost on many is the fact that taiji was not called as such until a much later time and it was in reference to the yang style. The idea of taiji is rooted in philosophy, as such styles that use this approach or display it in use can be said to be taiji or taiji like.

Differences in interpretation, are personal preferences unless one is looking for a historically correct pass down of a style I feel it matters little for an art that is eventually supposed to reach formlessness.