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Thread: The Shaolin Grandmasters Text

  1. #151
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    Mo Lung

    There isn't one in English yet. Shi Dejian's Shaolin 'encyclopedia' is a good record of Shaolin writings and treatises, but it's only in Chinese and fairly anecdotal. Dr. Meir Shahar's work will be an academic tour de force, but he's still working on it and it will be more scholarly than popular. If you were to sum up all my research, it's mostly contemporary - I'm not looking at what happened so much as I'm looking at what's happening, so I only dabble in the historical background for contextual sake. There's a few martial arts books that give some intro material, but for the most part, it's the same old stories of Tamo, Li Shinmen, and the Japanese pirates - more recital than anything else. You should start with that, surely, but once you get past it, things get pretty muddled. The history of Shaolin is so convoluted, especially when you get to the Qing and what happens in the south, that to write something comprehensive is a rather daunting task. It's easy to write something superficial - in fact, I imagine that's what most martial artists would prefer and they would be your main audience. The key to Shaolin research, whether it be history or kung fu, is not to look at one source. You must see the whole picture.
    Gene Ching
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    There isn't one in English yet.
    That's what I thought. My ability to read and write Chinese in less than minimal. Dayum, my ability to speak it is bad enough!

    Guess I'll look forward to Shahar's work. Should be worth the wait - you've mentioned it before.
    Train Smart, Train Hard & Enjoy Every Minute Of It.

    Kung Fu & Personal Training: ABActive.com

  3. #153
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    OSC= ORDER OF SHAOLIN COWARDS.
    QUOTE~GeneChing

    NOT...

    OSC = order of shaolin channeling
    given the location of the osc and some of the statements made it is more consistent with outer space
    ie: new age kung fu




    ~doc
    "he listened to the devil and learned that EVIL KUNG FU... but he saved the temple"

    -arhats in fury

  4. #154
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    Roc Doc

    channelling? cowards? I hear you, man. That was another big complaint I had about this book. It used a lot of quotes from Buddhism/Taoism etc. but in such a mishmash new-agey way that it was more like fortune cookie wisdom. There was clearly a personal philosophy that was being propounded, as well as the implication of justifying that philosophy by dropping these quotes out of context. With so many mixed sources, it muddled the original teachings, bending them to their agenda, not at all unlike many new age charlatans.

    The funny thing is that one 'kung fu' models looked disturbingly like my disciple brother, kungfu****/ Which reminds me - I gotta bust his chops for that.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
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  5. #155
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    i swear it's not me?

    wait it could be me. it might be some sort of newage future manifestation of my inner psyche.

    no wait......

    it's not me!

    this thread has been interesting, to say the least.......but to play the devil's advocate (like my big bro)

    GENE, how do we know you aren't paid by the PRC to debunk this book because the truths that live amongst its pages would set the Shaolin world upside down!! actaully..... how do we know the PRC didn't write this book, to make us think they were wrong, but knowing we wouldn't believe this book would make us more likely to believe them!

    (ouch, my head hurts!)

    ***wait til i finish my book on how i learned the ancient ways of shaolin from my father, who was raised in a secret temple of the shaolin order in Germany in the 1950s. he was the only disciple to learn the sourkraut fist and ledderhosen kick!***

    respect to all,
    kungfud0rk
    "once, but that was a long time ago"

  6. #156
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    Well bust mah chops!!!

    Maybe it was kungfu**** after all. My own little brother. A traitor to the cause.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  7. #157

    These vitriolic posts are actually persuasive arguments...

    ...to the credibility of the book (if not in a logical form, then certainly in a pathetical one), and its value as a purchase, or at least a read.

    As a Buddhist, I see all these posts that are mocking, bashing, name calling, and completely void of any constructive criticism, as not even remotely close to what the Buddha called Right Speech.

    Given this, when I read these attacks on the book's views of Buddhism, among other things, it gives me pause, as the hypocrisy becomes evident.

    In regards to the JAMA review, which I have read, Henning's review is no different. The article was subjective, and was not even a book review. He glossed over the majority of the book's content, only discussing the the first 30 pages or so. It seemed evident to me that after reading this far, he simply concluded that because the OSC's views did not toe the party line, or his research, that it must be worthless. He claims he is an academic, but his review does not lend credence to that claim. An academic review would have, in the least, laid out the contents of the book, and then supply counterpoints to any of the arguments that were made within it. Instead, all we receive in the way of a review, is a quick write off, leaving us (or at least me) still wondering where the review was.

    Fortunately, for the OSC, when the only counterpoints to any argument are caustic and immature, intelligent individuals tend to see through the ego, the posturing, and the agendas.
    Last edited by GenKwan; 03-26-2005 at 02:46 AM. Reason: spelling error

  8. #158
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    You should buy the book and write a review

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing
    This book sucks. It is packed with misinformation. It attempts to appear well researched by citing previous publications, but even the most cursory review of the bibliography reveals that it focuses only on recent titles and only in English. In fact, there are some obvious gaffs in here that clearly indicate that the researchers lack even the most fundamental understanding of Chinese language, much less Chinese culture. It's more of a manifesto - some one obviously put a lot of work into this solely to perpetuate their agenda within their strange belt system school. I get sent a lot of manifestos - this has to be the best presentation so far, but it still lacked content.

    There's two kickers to this - two outstanding things the just sent sent it over the top. One is that it comes with this little apology blow-in card. What kind of book does that? It's out of fear. Second, and this is why I call them 'cowards,' is that they refuse to identify themselves. They give all sorts of excuses for anonymity, but it's it's really ridiculous when you think about it. After all, this is the martial arts. If you can't lay your name and reputation down on the line with something that you publish, you have no right to stand amongst other martial artists that do.
    This looks like a pretty good review to me. It's honest and explains why the views are held, and it comes from someone that I and many others respect as a scholar and a very real expert on the subject.
    Train Smart, Train Hard & Enjoy Every Minute Of It.

    Kung Fu & Personal Training: ABActive.com

  10. #160
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    Point for point

    GenKwan, I fail to see your logic. Bad reviews in no way add to the credibilty of the book. That's just absurd.

    Henning slammed the book, one of the hardest slams I've ever seen JAMA publish, for good reason. Questioning his academic prowess versus OSC is ridiculous. Henning is a published scholar. OSC is a vanity pub. There is no comparison. The funny thing to me is that your post reminds me of the little blow-in 'apology' card, which sets the tone - calling its own advice 'excellent', saying that it's based on oral tradition, confessing ignorance, saying that its an 'inside' perspective - they all betray a certain lack of confidence, a prepared defense, if you will. When a card like that falls out into your lap the instant you first crack the book, it instills a feeling of amatuerishness. And that's just the beginning.

    I hope Mr. Henning didn't read the whole book for his own good. Pretty early on, any Shaolin researcher can see how poor the work is - citing Star Wars - come on, really. That could have worked, and may work on the uneducated, but its such a simplistic model and a fantasy at that. I did read the whole work. I'm happy to criticize it point by point, but it would be such a laborious task since there are so many incorrect points. I think Henning just got overwhelmed with the ridiculousness of it, as did I. But I did finish it so if you really want to go, point by point, we can do that. That would be unwise on your part. I would much prefer going point by point with the still anonymous and cowardly OSC.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  11. #161

    anyone read 'the shaolin grandmasters text'

    i recently read a curious/ fascinating book called 'The shaolin grandmasters text' written by guys in a group called the Order of shaolin ch'an?
    basically this book is allegedly a collection of shaolin Oral history and religion from before the cultural revolution. does anyone know much about this order? i think they are based in new york. Although the book gives a very detailed account of what they claim is lif ein the temple before PRC, the order seem to heap loads of hot coal on the current/ post PRC shaolin order and its martial arts.
    basically the book claims the shaolin MA practiced in the temple today is a mixture of village boxing and long fist- anyone know anything/ read this book/ or is indeed a member or student of this order.
    Black Ghost is curious.
    peace

  12. #162
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    They seem a bit less than honest... if you do a search, you might be able to find the past thread on them. There's a lot of groups out there that try to gain legitimacy by jumping on the "current monks are fake" bandwagon.

    They are somewhat correct about the current monks martial arts though. A lot of it is material taken from local Shaolin Temple area folk masters, modern wushu(standardized long fist, and some of the animal and weapons forms), and a few old monks (some may have been imported from other temples, like Hai Deng). Some monks that ended up there after the cultural revolution had experience in martial arts before they ended up at Shaolin like Shi Guolin (some familly style) and at least one of the monks in Texas (former modern wushu champ, and some sort of Shaolin fist expert). Then you also have stuff being imported from other areas like Chen taijiquan, bajiquan, xingyiquan, etc. What's taught there is constantly changing, with some monks even developing new curriculums and forms or just changing things to suit their own styles. So what you end up with is a combination of old Shaolin forms, modernized old forms, retrofitted modern forms, standard modern wushu, and more stuff brought in from outside. Check out http://www.plumpub.com's vcd Shaolin section to see a hint at the wide variety of material found in the area. I think it even has some vids from one of the folk masters who's material probably went towards reconstructing a Shaolin curriculum.

  13. #163
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    We discussed this a while back...

    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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  14. #164
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    Bump.............................................. .....................
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


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  15. #165
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    b@stard

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