The Shaolin Grandmasters Text

[GeneChing]

I'm curious who might sue them for fraud. Who was the injured party?

As for any plagiarism on their behalf, what amused me most about this book was that they did engage the body of literature that was available at the time of publication. Some of it, particularly the attempt to invalidate the wuseng (warrior monks) was clearly reactionary to material I had published. I was really the first to introduce wuseng to English readers, but it's been something that's been bandied about in Chinese for some time. As for 'village boxing', I'm not sure I'd take credit for that. It was a term that I worked out with Sifu Wing Lam, but I'd have to credit him with it more than me, albeit I was the first to publish it in that landmark IKF article on Ha Say Fu Hung Gar. Honestly, I don't know the Cantonese (Lam's native tongue) so I don't really use the term anymore since I seldom work from Cantonese. Now I usually say 'folk master', although it's a bit different to 'village'. Village implied rural martial arts practice, where I feel much of the most authentic kung fu is happening now. Folk master is more to distinguish from monastic practitioners like the wuseng, et.al.

[SimonM]

I met one folk master in China. He was a carpenter and an expert with the Dao. He was in his sixties and practiced a village style unique to northern Shanxi (the Xinzhou district, south of Datong and north of Wutaishan). He taught me a bit of his footwork, which was pretty straightforward based on a "T" pattern.

He becried both that he could not find any young people willing to take on either his style of kung fu or to apprentice as a carpenter.

[richard sloan]

I saw video tapes of some of their students fighting back in the early 80s, it was laughable "animal" positions like in the movies. All you had to do was step up and punch them out, they left their center lines wide open while they did funny animal hand positions with their arms above and behind them. Very silly!

I would love to see that.

[uki]

first the truth is ridiculed and laughed at, then it becomes violently oppressed, finally it manifests as becoming self evident... ignorant people laugh at what they do not understand... this book is a much better read than most anything kung fu magazine publishes... no offense, just expressing myself in the true american fashion...

[sanjuro_ronin]

first the truth is ridiculed and laughed at, then it becomes violently oppressed, finally it manifests as becoming self evident... ignorant people laugh at what they do not understand... this book is a much better read than most anything kung fu magazine publishes... no offense, just expressing myself in the true american fashion...

And you based that on what?

[uki]

And you based that on what?

considering i do own the book... it was a gift for a patio i did for a local kung fu school and i have been a faithful reader of the mag for several years now...

[MasterKiller]

this book is a much better read than most anything kung fu magazine publishes

Fantasy is always more entertaining than non-fiction.

[sanjuro_ronin]

considering i do own the book... it was a gift for a patio i did for a local kung fu school and i have been a faithful reader of the mag for several years now...

Wow, you must have done a lousy job.

[uki]

Wow, you must have done a lousy job.

i initial did the patio just for the school for free... the book made a last minute appearance.

Fantasy is always more entertaining than non-fiction.

yeah true... so better snap out of your kung fu fantasy world... like i said, it's easy to condemn what you do not understand. there are no shaolin in china, only actors.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I initially did, the book was my punishment !

Fixed that for you.

[uki]

Fixed that for you.

well then it was the very best punishment i possibly could have recieved.

[Songshan]

first the truth is ridiculed and laughed at, then it becomes violently oppressed, finally it manifests as becoming self evident... ignorant people laugh at what they do not understand... this book is a much better read than most anything kung fu magazine publishes... no offense, just expressing myself in the true american fashion...

I think this is very applicable to your comment in the Shaolin 2009 magazine thread.

[r.(shaolin)]

I'm curious who might sue them for fraud. Who was the injured party?
I was really the first to introduce wuseng to English readers, but it's been something that's been bandied about in Chinese for some time.

I first saw the term "martial monks" translated into English in 1981, and the pinyin, "wuseng" (武僧) in Meir Shahar's Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies article in 2001. The term 僧兵 seng bing (monastic troops), a similar and related term but more commonly used, has been published in English at lest since the 1970's and if I am remembering correctly, as early as the 1958. Both terms have been used in Chinese at least since the 1500's. The reason I bring this
up is because I've used both terms in stuff I've written as early as 1982 and don't want to get accused of plagiarism :-)
r.
ps.
I read this thread mainly because is seemed to have staying power:-) From what is being said these "Order of Shaolin" folks sound pretty weird.They sent me a complimentary copy of their book when it was first published. After a quick read it ended up in my basement. Over the holidays I'll give it a closer look - and possibly will write a short critique.

[GeneChing]

The term wuseng has been bandied about in Chinese and scholarly works prior to my use of it, but I think I still was the first to introduce it in a popular martial arts publication. I didn't mean to imply that it was a term that I made up. I should have specified 'pop culture English readers.' Nevertheless, I do feel that the section of TSGT that was devoted to invalidating the existence of wuseng was a reaction to some things I had published at the time. It's not only my own observation but that of others like David Jamieson above. There's no plagiary in countering arguments - quite the opposite really - and I wasn't accusing TSGT of that in my post above at all. I welcome rebuttal. If anything, TSGT's comments were a little flattering.

[David Jamieson]

The term wuseng has been bandied about in Chinese and scholarly works prior to my use of it, but I think I still was the first to introduce it in a popular martial arts publication. I didn't mean to imply that it was a term that I made up. I should have specified 'pop culture English readers.' Nevertheless, I do feel that the section of TSGT that was devoted to invalidating the existence of wuseng was a reaction to some things I had published at the time. It's not only my own observation but that of others like David Jamieson above. There's no plagiary in countering arguments - quite the opposite really - and I wasn't accusing TSGT of that in my post above at all. I welcome rebuttal. If anything, TSGT's comments were a little flattering.

It's also worth noting that this book did little if anything at all in the way of cross-referencing with historical treatises on the subjects at hand that are extant already and it seems to be a compilation of westernized understandings of what shaolin is/was, what kungfu is/was and so on.

academically speaking, it is at best shaky and at worst, a complete and utter fraud salted with stories from some good points and heaping helpings of musings that have little if anything to do with reality, history, or Shaolin itself.

If I want to learn about WW2 I won't do it through Captain America novels even though the Captain America stories may contain references to real places or things or people or events. The comic script is not a viable source.

Most people, who can go beyond rudimentary knowledge of Shaolin, Zen, martial Arts from Shaolin and so on can clearly and readily see this book is not the greatest of works on the subject.

In my opinion, barely even a mediocre presentation.

No apologies. Because there is no mirror and you and I are not dust upon it.