The Shaolin Grandmasters Text

[r.(shaolin)]

Wow! This book is screwed up. Its a muddle of confusion written by confused people. Talk about misinformation.
They even have the basic information wrong. Here is one example:
This 'order' (more of a dis-order:-) believe that the terms, shi di, shi jie and shi xiong designate the "level of the practitioner". These are relational terms and have nothing to do with the level of the practitioner. Yikes!!! and I have only started reading it.
r.

It's also worth noting that this book did little if anything at all in the way of cross-referencing with historical treatises on the subjects at hand that are extant already and it seems to be a compilation of westernized understandings of what shaolin is/was, what kungfu is/was and so on.

academically speaking, it is at best shaky and at worst, a complete and utter fraud salted with stories from some good points and heaping helpings of musings that have little if anything to do with reality, history, or Shaolin itself.

If I want to learn about WW2 I won't do it through Captain America novels even though the Captain America stories may contain references to real places or things or people or events. The comic script is not a viable source.

Most people, who can go beyond rudimentary knowledge of Shaolin, Zen, martial Arts from Shaolin and so on can clearly and readily see this book is not the greatest of works on the subject.

In my opinion, barely even a mediocre presentation.

No apologies. Because there is no mirror and you and I are not dust upon it.

[LFJ]

They even have the basic information wrong. Here is one example: This 'order' (more of a dis-order:-) believe that the terms, shi di, shi jie and shi xiong designate the "level of the practitioner". These are relational terms and have nothing to do with the level of the practitioner.

actually it depends. they can indicate either level or age depending on relationship to oneself.

take shixiong (senior brother) for example. one can be a shixiong to you if:

1. they study with the same shifu, but are year ahead of you.
2. they are your shifu's son and are older than you.
3. they are your father's student and are older than you.

it works the same respectively for shidi (junior brother), shijie (senior sister) and shimei (junior sister). you can have an older shidi who is behind you in studies with the same shifu, for example. you may also have a younger shijie.

the things that have more of a red flag to me in that book are all the ridiculous levels and associated colors of pants for which style, and whether or not you can wear shoes at each level.

things like this, not to mention their unverifiable lineage and that silly photo of their "monk" in the back of the book, who is obviously a white guy wearing a karate suit with long hair, doing a jump kick covering his face so you cant actually see him. looks like they took a still from a bruce lee movie and turned it black and white.

i had a funny little chat with one of the authors some time ago...

[r.(shaolin)]

actually it depends. they can indicate either level or age depending on relationship to oneself.

In the tradition I practice this has had nothing to do with level or age. In the case of Shixiong (senior brother) for example, a person would be a shixiong to a brother disciple if they have a disciple relationship with the same shifu, and began this relationship earlier. This would be the case even if the student was the shifu's son. This system organizes both the disciples in the same generation as well as their relationship between generations. The most junior member of one generation is senior to the most senior member of the next.


As far as the book goes, it is rather strange. What was your conversation with them about?
r.

[r.(shaolin)]

I finally slogged through this piece of crap what a horrid waste of time that was. I must concur with Henning's review in JAMA. What can you expect from 'vanity' publishing?

This book sucks. It is packed with misinformation. It attempts to appear well researched by citing previous publications, but even the most cursory review of the bibliography reveals that it focuses only on recent titles and only in English. In fact, there are some obvious gaffs in here that clearly indicate that the researchers lack even the most fundamental understanding of Chinese language, much less Chinese culture. It's more of a manifesto - some one obviously put a lot of work into this solely to perpetuate their agenda within their strange belt system school. I get sent a lot of manifestos - this has to be the best presentation so far, but it still lacked content.

There's two kickers to this - two outstanding things the just sent sent it over the top. One is that it comes with this little apology blow-in card. What kind of book does that? It's out of fear. Second, and this is why I call them 'cowards,' is that they refuse to identify themselves. They give all sorts of excuses for anonymity, but it's it's really ridiculous when you think about it. After all, this is the martial arts. If you can't lay your name and reputation down on the line with something that you publish, you have no right to stand amongst other martial artists that do.

I feel bad for any newbies who begin their Shaolin journey with this book. They will be so deluded. I can only hope that they can find the truth, in the end.

ditto to the above (and to many of the other criticisms of this book).

It looks to me like this group may have had some connection to one of the many Buddhist heterodox secret societies. It is also apparent that the book which The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text is based on by the person called Li En Huo - if it existed - is very thin indeed.

The description of Li En Huo's sect has all the earmarks of such societies that have a long history in China. Here are some quotes from the book that suggest this to me:

". . . imperial soldiers surrounded the Henan Temple at night and set fire to the grounds, . .and seven of the thirteen priests and some forty disciples managed to escape . . pg. 29.

This is a feature of most Triad accounts although 5 or 18 monks escaping is more common.

". . . beginning in 1902 senior Shaolin priest began arriving in the United States. They spent time in such cities as San Francisco, Chicago, Vancouver, and Toronto, before convening in New York (and established a temple). They generally kept very low profiles . . . ." pg. 45

"Our grandmasters decided in the 1940's to make efforts to ensure that any rebirth of the Order would come from the New World. . . ." pg. 14

It is not surprising, given how pervasive secretive societies were, that they would come to North America. Many, if not all, were connected with the Chinese triad societies.

" ...the unique Shaolin martial training, allowed their hair to grow back..." pg. 101

I doubt this - Shaolin was an Imperial Monastery for most of it history, as with other imperial monasteries, it tended to be more orthodox and strict in this regard. Only lay-brothers and sisters kept their hair, clergy did not.

"Shaolin makes no prohibition against fraternization between male and female monks. . . "pg. 101

Fraternization ( intermingling indiscriminately) between males and females was one of the most common criticisms of the heterodox secret societies by both the orthodox Buddhists (and Imperial governments) during the Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing period.

"Shaolin students were also taught acting, mime, make-up costuming and ventriloquism skills. pg. 102

Again something typical of subversive secret societies. Ge Lao Hui 哥老會 as an example included martal arts and acting.

In my opinion, Li En Huo, et al. may have been connected to the 哥老會 Ge Lao Hui or a Qing Bang 青幫 society originating at 法性寺 Fa Xing Si in Hopei province during the late 1600's. It was composed of pro Ming rebels from Fujian and Guangdong who had been fighting in the north. At the beginning of the Qing period a number of them became monks and settled at Fa Xing Si. This group changed the name of this monastery to "Shaolin" and claimed connection to the Henan monastery. In an effort to evade government scrutiny, this secret society calling itself a number of different names including Five Happiness Society (伍福黨 Wu Fu Dang) and spread in the north then to Fujian and Guangdong Provinces. My guess is that the "Order of Shaolin Ch'an" group may, at one time, have had some contact with members of that society. Basically, these societies are not connected in any direct way with the real Shaolin monastery.

r.

[uki]

I finally slogged through this piece of crap what a horrid waste of time that was.

that's quite the tipping of the scales of balance... would you take it as far as burning it? and what truly can be called a waste of time when it the only thing that time brings, is change.

This book sucks.

because the possibility would cause the collapse of the worlds martial arts as brought through your magazine?

It is packed with misinformation.

yet how do you defend misinformation, if any, that is published in your magazine?

It attempts to appear well researched by citing previous publications, but even the most cursory review of the bibliography reveals that it focuses only on recent titles and only in English.

akin to teaching a child the basic building blocks, from which to build their own search for the truth. naturally you first give the people something in which they can relate to... moving backwards is rising upwards.

In fact, there are some obvious gaffs in here that clearly indicate that the researchers lack even the most fundamental understanding of Chinese language, much less Chinese culture.

yet oral traditions kept for thousands of years will naturally very from the language around them... and considering the the book sites that the last of the order was gone around '28 there is a strong possibility that the lack of influnence from evolving chinese culture and language would seem off.

It's more of a manifesto - some one obviously put a lot of work into this solely to perpetuate their agenda within their strange belt system school.

yet isn't that called successful marketting strategy or something? if you wanted to put forth a first book, ever, to the public... wouldn't you want to make a big splash? compared to your magazine, which is more like a strewn handful of pebbles, this book, regardless of authenticity, made one hêll of a splash... and we all know that the ripples from one big splash, usually disrupt all the little chaotic ripples caused from a small handful...

I get sent a lot of manifestos - this has to be the best presentation so far, but it still lacked content.

another fine example of the concept of big splashes.

There's two kickers to this - two outstanding things the just sent sent it over the top. One is that it comes with this little apology blow-in card. What kind of book does that?

a truly humble jester...

It's out of fear.

fear you say? i'd say it took quite a set of balls to present this book to an obviously hostile world of Modern Martial Arts.

Second, and this is why I call them 'cowards,' is that they refuse to identify themselves. They give all sorts of excuses for anonymity, but it's it's really ridiculous when you think about it.

so those in an order that has suffered persecution, from their near beginnings, who have had numerous members killed over the years from ignorant minded folks, are in fact being... cowards?

After all, this is the martial arts.

you see, you are missing the point entirely... shaolin is not about martials first... there no reason to even care wether or not the world accepts it or not.

If you can't lay your name and reputation down on the line with something that you publish, you have no right to stand amongst other martial artists that do.

you're right!! they can stand amongst whoever they want, because they live up to no one elses set of standards and beliefs than their own.

I feel bad for any newbies who begin their Shaolin journey with this book.

everyone starts their journey somewhere... better to start with one book of possible bull, rarther than a magazines worth of a thousand possible more...

They will be so deluded.

delusion is relative to the individual, not the spectators.

I can only hope that they can find the truth, in the end.

even as the scales of can tip from end to end without finding stability, they still cross the inflection point of of balance at the center...

[richard sloan]

I can't believe I wasted a calorie reading that post Uki.

[Scott R. Brown]

I can't believe I wasted a calorie reading that post Uki.

Not to mention the calories you wasted posting a reply!

[uki]

I can't believe I wasted a calorie reading that post Uki.

i am sure you have far worse ways to waste your calories.

Not to mention the calories you wasted posting a reply!

yet is anything ever wasted? they say that one mans trash is another mans treasure...

[Scott R. Brown]

they say that one mans trash is another mans treasure...

And one man's foolishness is another man's wisdom!

[uki]

And one man's foolishness is another man's wisdom!

how true... and then again, one mans wisdom is another mans folly.

[Scott R. Brown]

how true... and then again, one mans wisdom is another mans folly.

And yet, one man's folly, is another man's fortune!

[uki]

And yet, one man's folly, is another man's fortune!

we seemed to have established this fact.

[richard sloan]

well having invested the calorie, in for a penny, in for a pound.

actually it's good to have ignorant posts like that around, without a punching bag you never can learn to hit.

[richard sloan]

...
so those in an order that has suffered persecution, from their near beginnings, who have had numerous members killed over the years from ignorant minded folks, are in fact being... cowards?...

LMAO!!! Gene, of course they have to hide their identity! They don't want you sending your ninjas after them!!!!

Actually Uki, I have to thank you. The day was a little dull, but now at least there is some humor.

What's your favorite Shaw Brothers flick? I'm going to guess Brave Archer 2.

[uki]

Actually Uki, I have to thank you. The day was a little dull, but now at least there is some humor.

theres always a rainbow when you least expect it.

What's your favorite Shaw Brothers flick? I'm going to guess Brave Archer 2.

to be honest i am not much of a kung fu movies buff... i wouldn't know i a shaw brothers film if i saw one.