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Thread: The Shaolin Grandmasters Text

  1. #46
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    Originally posted by Just a Guy
    Why are you so upset then?

    Are you experiencing righteous indignation at the possibility that some group of people are lying about Shaolin heritage and using that to rip people off?

    Before launching into your attack of slander and put-downs, have you also considered the possibility that the OSC is legitimate, has a legitimate lineage, is not taking advantage of anyone, and prefers anonymity for reasons that may not make sense to *you*?
    I'm with Emre on this one!!!

    Just a Guy!!! If this Order of Shaolin Chan is legitimate, we would be more then happy to say we were wrong. YOU and the OSC will have to prove without a doubt of it's legitimate lineage, that can be verified outside of the OSC and SGI & heritage. But you will say something like "I do not have prove anything to you.... ect ....ect..... And you are right. You do not have to. But the OSC will not get the respect from the TCMA world till Someone does this.

    There have been a lot of schools here in the Pacific Northwest that claim one thing and then it's not true! We seem to get a lot of people that are trying to make money from the lack of Real TCMA here! I, for one will, fight any way I can keep the fakes out! Be honest and you will get more respect from the TCMA world! I will let you know what Sifu Eng said when I get the e-mail from him.


    ~Jason

    PS.... If you do not like my Movie, then Please do not read it!!! I like to have fun and I'm a sucker for a good kung fu flick! Also the members here at KFM are going ez on you.... Just ask Kung Lek!
    Last edited by Fen; 10-12-2004 at 12:37 PM.
    館術國勇威 Wei Yong Martial Arts Association
    戰挑的權霸統傳 The Challenge for Traditional Supremacy
    http://www.weiyongkungfu.com
    _________________________
    What is 'traditional kung fu' ?
    Chinese fighting arts developed before the advent of the modern age in China. Not to be confused with modern, post-1949, Wushu or competitive fighting such as kick boxing .
    By Shanghai Jing Mo

  2. #47
    A passion for integrity is a good thing, but then why such virulence? "Only surviving grandmasters" is something you pulled off shaolin.com, I think. It is a claim made nowhere by the OSC or this book. Shaolin priests dispersed all over the place: America, Europe, Australia, Malaysia, Hong Kong. Our lineage hardly includes the *only* grandmasters. That would be a joke. Our lineage *does* include abbots of both the Honan temple and the Fukien temple.

    But how would you propose going about validating that? You could ask Gin Foon Mark, Wai Hong or other people who were active in NYC during the time in question, but they may not give you any information. Or even if they do, it all comes down to the words of individuals.

    We live in an impermanent world. Shaolin used to brand their arms with a kind of diploma, but the last of those with such brands died in the mid-1970s. And no, no one took pictures! The only proof of anything is in the teachings. The book's primary purpose is to share the philosophical teachings of Shaolin. Very few people alive are in a position to judge its "authenticity" from a historical perspective. Everyone else is relying on their notions of Shaolin which have come from movies and television and the resurrection of Shaolin under the PRC.

    You express apathy about the issue of anonymity, then go to great lengths to make accusations of identity. Then you conclude that writing a book about Shaolin and anonymity should be mutually exclusive. But you don't care enough to discover the reasoning behind the anonymity, so this is a bizarre conclusion.

    There were two routes to releasing this book. One was to put names on it, explain the lineage, and then some people would get all hot and bothered about "verifying" the lineage. The second route, and the one we opted for, was to just put the book out anonymously, and let people get all hot and bothered about who wrote the book - but with the hope that when people read the book, they would just try to assess it FOR THEMSELVES. There's a fundamental difference between saying, "I am mighty so-and-so, and you should believe this book because of who I am," and "I am a nobody with questionable authority and you should ONLY believe this book if it makes sense to you." Again, we chose the second option, primarily because it is most consistent with our interpretation of Buddhism. Sorry to explain this, you've already stated that you don't care - but perhaps others may.

    The OSC is a religious order and a registered non-profit. The proceeds from the sale of this book do not inure to any private individual, but are earmarked to build a facility to preserve our heritage. And when we teach, we teach for free. We do not charge lesson fees to study Shaolin Ch'an and gung fu. Does it sound like the OSC is a money-grubbing organization trying to make a quick buck off the ignorant?

  3. #48
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    Is it? Only time will tell!

    You know you can always drive down here to Southern Oregon and meet me. Then show this book or give a copy, and tell me all about the OSC if you like? I'm aways up for a good Dinner and chat about Kung Fu...

    ~Jason
    館術國勇威 Wei Yong Martial Arts Association
    戰挑的權霸統傳 The Challenge for Traditional Supremacy
    http://www.weiyongkungfu.com
    _________________________
    What is 'traditional kung fu' ?
    Chinese fighting arts developed before the advent of the modern age in China. Not to be confused with modern, post-1949, Wushu or competitive fighting such as kick boxing .
    By Shanghai Jing Mo

  4. #49
    Just a Guy,

    My money is kinda tight.

    So, would it be okay if I join this discussion, generate hot chili bean funk about you and your organization, and then ask for a free book?

    mickey

  5. #50
    Originally posted by Just a Guy

    There were two routes to releasing this book. One was to put names on it, explain the lineage, and then some people would get all hot and bothered about "verifying" the lineage. The second route, and the one we opted for, was to just put the book out anonymously, and let people get all hot and bothered about who wrote the book - but with the hope that when people read the book, they would just try to assess it FOR THEMSELVES. There's a fundamental difference between saying, "I am mighty so-and-so, and you should believe this book because of who I am," and "I am a nobody with questionable authority and you should ONLY believe this book if it makes sense to you." Again, we chose the second option, primarily because it is most consistent with our interpretation of Buddhism.


    "Two living Shaolin monks, who wish to remain anonymous, finished writing this book based on materials left by three deceased Shaolin grandmasters"

    Calling yourselves Shaolin monks is hardly calling yourselves two nobodies. In fact saying "I'm a mighty so-and-so" is exactly what it is and by remaining anonymous you try and render yourselves even more untouchable lest someone question your right to call yourselves Shaolin monks.

    Then someone finds out some factual information about who you really are, you get all hot and bothered and accuse him of being slanderous and virulent. Is that the Buddha's teaching?

    You keep repeating that people should make up their own minds about the authenticity of the book or the usefulness of the information contained within, after reading it. This is a fallacious argument. If the reader were to know the Shaolin arts well enough to judge whether something in the book written by the abbots of Shaolin from the turn of the century was authentic or not, he would surely be a Shaolin grandmaster himself, and wouldn't need to read the book in the first place. Or maybe the reader should just trust his sixth sense?

    Oh, and is this guy who has reached "enlightened level" in Black Crane a student of OSC?
    Last edited by emre; 09-12-2004 at 02:57 PM.

  6. #51
    Emre, in any journey there comes a point where you have to rely upon your own discernment. If you do not wish to do this, I suppose you will simply have to wait for other reviews to come in from people that you trust. And if such reviews never appear, well, don't buy the book. I doubt there is any proof I could provide that would satisfy you.

    Right Speech is the Buddha's way, and I do no harm by asking you why your posts are filled with character assassination (as with questioning Eng Sifu's integrity and the link to the alleged Black Crane practitioner in your last post - whom I don't know). Sarcastic comments like that (and earlier ones about people involved with curator.org) are designed to provide a laugh at someone else's expense.

    We have provided enough lineal information for people to make an investigation.

    And Mickey, contact me with a marketing plan. I volunteered for the job of marketing and fulfillment for this book without any clue about what I was getting into, and if you provide me with new ideas that result in sales, I'd be happy to give you a copy.

    By the way, I think readers should trust their sixth sense. In Buddhist thought, the sixth sense is the *mind*.

  7. #52
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    Hummmmmmmmmm!

    What, no comment?

    ~Jason
    Last edited by Fen; 09-12-2004 at 08:08 PM.
    館術國勇威 Wei Yong Martial Arts Association
    戰挑的權霸統傳 The Challenge for Traditional Supremacy
    http://www.weiyongkungfu.com
    _________________________
    What is 'traditional kung fu' ?
    Chinese fighting arts developed before the advent of the modern age in China. Not to be confused with modern, post-1949, Wushu or competitive fighting such as kick boxing .
    By Shanghai Jing Mo

  8. #53
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    Well, this thread has certainly become interesting...

    Let me state for the record that I'm interested in seeing any new books on Shaolin, even independant/vanity publications. I look forward to seeing this book and I'm even looking more forward to seeing the book I mentioned back on page 2 by Andy James - mostly because it's Wisdom Publications and that's a publisher of some repute. Despite the odd subtitle "Buddhism, Daoism, and the Energetic Arts" I'll still look at it when a copy crosses my path.

    There's a lot of mythology about Shaolin, even our founder, Bodhidharma is myth, but that doesn't make it any less interesting or potentially valuable.

    Of course, I enjoyed some of the more silly Shaolin books like Carradine's Spirit of Shaolin, so you have to take what I say with that in mind...
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  9. #54
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    Of course, I enjoyed some of the more silly Shaolin books like Carradine's Spirit of Shaolin, so you have to take what I say with that in mind...
    speaking of highly dubious publications, is there any nudity whatsoever in any of these manuals. I'm searching for the shaolin roots of nude tai chi.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  10. #55
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    Nude Tai Chi

    The roots of Nude Tai Chi are in Nude Yoga. If you doubt me, consult google.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
    Support our forum by getting your gear at MartialArtSmart

  11. #56
    Originally posted by Just a Guy
    And Mickey, contact me with a marketing plan. I volunteered for the job of marketing and fulfillment for this book without any clue about what I was getting into, and if you provide me with new ideas that result in sales, I'd be happy to give you a copy.
    I'm not mickey, but here's a marketing plan for you:

    Come clean on the authors of the book and come clean with their credentials so that potential purchasers can verify that the book is sourced from reputable knowledge. I guarantee that'll sell a few.
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
    ---------------------------------------------
    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  12. #57
    Greetings,

    The thing that intrigued me about this book is that there WERE monks in NYC Chinatown that did practice martial arts. And I got this second hand from people that I respect. The inner traditions if Shaolin are not easily accessible.

    mickey

  13. #58
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    Although this does not sit well with the modern mind, secrecy was very much part and parcel of classical Shaolin wushu and I would add that, this included certain Buddhist practices and methods. Transmission by traditional methods was closely tied to loyalty to the Shaolin tradition and the teacher/student relationship. Those who became a permanent part of a Shaolin lineage were committed to a moral code and its obligations for life. Beyond discretion, 'secrecy' of 'high level' methods was also characteristic of most martial art lineages during Imperial times. At the turn of the twentieth century two major efforts were made to break this dimension of CMA which was seen by the modernists as a negative aspect. The first major effort was by the Jingwu Tiyu Hui and the other Goumindang Central Academy. Neither were completely successful as to this day there are teachers that maintain a tradition of secrecy reserving advanced methods for very close and loyal student whose life obligation includes passing on the tradition to the next generation.

    mickey, I too have some reasons to believe that it is possible that there may have been a discreet presence of Shaolin monks in the NY's Chinatown as late as the very early 70's.

    r.
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 09-13-2004 at 09:06 PM.

  14. #59
    Originally posted by r.(shaolin)
    Although this does not sit well with the modern mind, secrecy was very much part and parcel of classical Shaolin wushu and I would add that, this included certain Buddhist practices and methods.
    Yeah, but the key word here should be was.
    "i can barely click the link. but i way why stop drinking .... i got ... moe .. fcke me ..im out of it" - GDA on Traditional vs Modern Wushu
    ---------------------------------------------
    but what if the man of steel hasta fight another man of steel only that man of steel knows kung fu? - Kristoffer
    ---------------------------------------------
    How do you think monks/strippers got started before the internet? - Gene Ching
    ---------------------------------------------
    Find your peace in practice. - Gene Ching

  15. #60
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    Just a Guy! I feel that you are loseing face here... Thats not a good thang you know! But thats ok! You can not say I did not offer to here you out...


    ~Jason
    館術國勇威 Wei Yong Martial Arts Association
    戰挑的權霸統傳 The Challenge for Traditional Supremacy
    http://www.weiyongkungfu.com
    _________________________
    What is 'traditional kung fu' ?
    Chinese fighting arts developed before the advent of the modern age in China. Not to be confused with modern, post-1949, Wushu or competitive fighting such as kick boxing .
    By Shanghai Jing Mo

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