The Shaolin Grandmasters Text

[mickey]

Greetings,

I do not think that Just a Guy is losing face here. He is geting a lot of flack from people that have yet to read the book. NO ONE complained when those photo albums came out about Shaolin. Everyone believed the hype.

I prefer to read the book first. I have noticed over time that some, when confronted with truth, will cling harder to the lie. Will this be the same with the naysayers if this book contains pearls of wisdom and truth?

Let us speculate no more and read the book. Then we can talk about it. If it sucks, we can get together at Gene's or r.'s place and have a book burning. And we can toast marshmallows.

mickey

[mickey]

And more,

For those who are looking for verifyable info:

That is incredibly difficult to do when it comes to inner traditions; more often than not, we are dealing with oral traditions--very hard to verify. Some initiates of these inner traditions will go as far as to deny the existence of something than to share it with an outsider. Shaolin is no different in this regard. That can be a double edged sword at times. It can allow charlatans to pop up claiming an inner tradition. Yet, it is those true inner traditions that can separate the true from false.

I want to read the book. It should be a good read.

mickey

[emre]

Originally posted by mickey
Greetings,


I prefer to read the book first. I have noticed over time that some, when confronted with truth, will cling harder to the lie. Will this be the same with the naysayers if this book contains pearls of wisdom and truth?

And some people will ignore the facts that are presented to them.

Did I ever claim these 3 Shaolin Monks never existed? I said they may or may not have existed and they may or may not have taught these people and that I didn't know.

All I took issue with was the cultish secrecy, and the fact that the book was supposedly "finished" by "two living shaolin monks". I must be holding Shaolin monkhood in higher regard than these people, since I find it quite amusing that they really believe themselves to be monks.

I provided the information for everyone to see for themselves who these Shaolin monks are, the living ones, not the dead.

Just a Guy also denied the link between Shaolin.com and OSC, saying it was a student's independent website, but I provided the evidence that shows that Shaolin.com is registered under a company founded by a prominent OSC member.

It's not whether these 3 deceased monks ever lived and whether they wrote this book or not that has been the topic of all the negative attention, but rather the people who are now marketing this book and their attitudes.

Had these people come out openly about who they are, they would have gotten a much warmer welcome. I speak for myself, but I'm sure many others who were negative feel the same way as well.

[emre]

Originally posted by mickey

The thing that intrigued me about this book is that there WERE monks in NYC Chinatown that did practice martial arts. And I got this second hand from people that I respect. The inner traditions if Shaolin are not easily accessible.

Originally posted by r.(shaolin)

mickey, I too have some reasons to believe that it is possible that there may have been a discreet presence of Shaolin monks in the NY's Chinatown as late as the very early 70's.

Dear god,

Did you guys take oaths of secrecy as well, or is this clandestineness contagious?

[r.(shaolin)]

Although I too am skeptical, my feeling is that this is not simply an attempt to hoodwink the unsuspecting public. There are a number of provocative ideas, Just a Guy has posted on this forum on another thread that I question, but this does mean that he or this organization have nothing to offer in terms of insight and records into the nature and history of Shaolin. As someone else has said here, lets take a look at what is being offered then ask some questions - after all the book is being offered publicly.

r.

[Brad]

Now that I think about it, I DID meet an old guy at a Karate tournement once who claimed to have partied with a "Shaolin monk" in NYC when he was younger(60's or 70's?). I thought he was full of it and didn't bother asking questions, but maybe there was something to his story after all, lol.

[Just a Guy]

Originally posted by emre
I must be holding Shaolin monkhood in higher regard than these people, since I find it quite amusing that they really believe themselves to be monks.

I provided the information for everyone to see for themselves who these Shaolin monks are, the living ones, not the dead.

Just a Guy also denied the link between Shaolin.com and OSC, saying it was a student's independent website, but I provided the evidence that shows that Shaolin.com is registered under a company founded by a prominent OSC member.

Emre, I think you may be putting Shaolin on a pedestal. Shaolin is nothing special. It is simply a path, just like any other path. And some people are suited to it - most aren't. It isn't good or bad.

I will neither confirm nor deny all of your "research," except to say that it is flawed. Everyone has the buddha-nature. If you feel that uncovering yours requires axe grinding, happy sharpening. I'm not being flippant here; I'm completely serious. Everyone must do what they must do.

**************************************************

On saving face, "face" is a concept that Shaolin threw out a looonnnggggg time ago. We wouldn't have published anonymously had we cared about face - we would have wanted to "establish" ourselves, and we would have published all sorts of things that verified our "legitimacy." No thanks.

Take a look at the issue of anonymity. From our perspective, the ONLY downside of it is that a certain group of potential book-buyers will feel uneasy and so will not buy the book.

But look at the downside of "establishing" ourselves. All of the sudden, we create a cult of personality revolving around our more senior people. Our students then reinforce their egos with their affiliation to those people - when we're trying to extinguish the ego! By remaining anonymous, we demonstrate to our students in a very tangible way that "status" is irrelevant. (The Order of Shaolin Cha'n is a cooperative religious order - we all work together and although some people are senior, they should not be seen as gods or heads of state.)

If we published detailed information on ourselves, our lineage, and our affiliations with famous personages, all of a sudden, it becomes much more difficult to screen the people who approach us for training. Why? Because they are coming for the wrong reasons. This is already becoming a problem for us. For 100 years, the people in our organization have sort of "fallen" into it somehow, mostly by accident. (This makes a lot of sense in Shaolin, because it is seen as the manifestation of karmic energy from previous turnings of the wheel.) Lineage was never shared with students until they were disciples - they had already proven their dedication and ability to live the Shaolin Way - WITHOUT the external justification of lineage. Shaolin has never been about lineage. Those students who require a lineage are better off training in a pai somewhere. Lineage in itself isn't bad, but it isn't considered that important in Shaolin.

Yet we had to make a compromise. We wanted to share the information in The Shaolin Grandmasters' Text, for a few reasons. One, to provide any interested party access to Shaolin philosophy. Two, to strengthen our sangha by raising enough money to establish a physical temple. And three, to inform those interested about traditional Shaolin in the face of tremendous misinformation. So, to make this compromise between complete anonymity and these goals, we published under our organization's name. We revealed the names of our deceased - which I still have mixed feelings about. But ultimately, those priests felt that Shaolin had something important to offer the world, and should continue. So I think they wouldn't mind us publishing their names.

Allow me to share another thing about our monks, both living and not: they were/are not, foremost, martial artists. Gasp! Shaolin never have been. Shaolin are Buddhists first, and martial artists second, or third, or fourth. Shaolin has never trained its members to become professional martial arts teachers. That's laughable, but one of many misconceptions currently being propagated. In fact, to become ordained in Shaolin, one MUST develop gung fu in other areas as well as the martial arts.

The message of Shaolin is that martial training can provide a dharma door - a vehicle to awakening. But so can washing dishes! Something to keep in mind.

www.shaolintemple.org

[Fen]

Mickey:.....
Just a Gut is ignoreing the fact that I offered to have dinner and here him out and take a look at the book... There would be know fighting.. Just to kung fu Guy's chating about kung fu and having dinner...

But he has ignored my post and has not even said "No Thank You" He is showing disrespect for ignoreing the offer and losing face for it... There are only a hand full of Real TCMA teachers in the Northwest of the U.S.. 2 in Bellingham, Most are in the Seattle area.. 2 in the Portland area, 2 in Eugene and Me in Southern Oregon.. From me south, NONE till Sacramento Ca..and the SF Bay Area.. All most all of them do not post on the net but me and rubthebuddha (From a WT School in Bellingham Wa)..

The offer still stands if he is open to the idea..

~Jason

[Roc Doc]

just a guy,
some very interesting thoughts in your last post. i appreciate your candor.
i for one, hope to know more about your thread reaching into the past.
i understand your thought that lineage can be a stumbling block for a student. can cause him to be there for the wrong reason. cause him to attach to something that is not important. however... it is my humble opinion that in martial practice and even more so in dharma practice, lineage is very important because it provides a direct path from the original master to the student. (martial master to student or more important, buddha to student). this is not important because of the name but because of the teaching. indeed there is always attrition in long lines of transmission however i think lineage is still the best safeguard for the transmission, understanding and preservation of important knowledge. personally, i hope for pure martial and dharma jewels.
i hope you will continue to share your lineage,
~doc

[Just a Guy]

I have no intention to slight you, Jason. Your offer is very kind, but my obligations permit very little free time. So I will have to decline.

Also, Just a Gut probably *is* a better alias for me than Just a Guy. Thanks for the chuckle.

[Just a Guy]

Doc,

Good question about Dharma transmission. Shaolin operates more like most Korean Ch'an orders with respect to this, and unlike Japanese Zen and some other Chinese sects. Becoming ordained in a Japanese tradition means that the new priest has received that Dharma from his/her teacher - in effect becoming "enlightened" - a long trail of such transmitted enlightenment stretches back to Shakyamuni.

In Shaolin, becoming ordained is not equivalent to being enlightened. Shaolin, as a Buddhist sect, does not arbitrate enlightenment. Ordination in Shaolin is a recognition that the student has mastered certain aspects of Shaolin arts and is qualified to teach the Dharma. Because of this, one's specific teachers within the Order never mattered that much. If one came from Shaolin, he (or she) came from Shaolin. That's all there is to it.

We have made just enough, and no more, lineage information available for people to make an investigation should they care to. But the emphasis should really be on the teachings, and not the people. We'll try to get more material up on the OSC website. If that material resonates with people, then I would suggest that the book may be a good investment.

[NorthernShaolin]

Just A Guy,

Nice Marketing Strategy. Keep everyone guessing who these monks are and what this book is really about.

Quote:

"Take a look at the issue of anonymity. From our perspective, the ONLY downside of it is that a certain group of potential book-buyers will feel uneasy and so will not buy the book."

By announcing that you are publishing a book under anonymously is a very good bait

What you said here is also correct:

Quote.."potential book-buyers will feel uneasy and so will not buy the book."

But you have set the table of potentialy increasing more potential buyers because you caused this "Air of Mystic" about the new book.

Anyway, excellent marketing. So my question is....Do you also fight the same way by keeping your opponent off guard too?

[emre]

Originally posted by Just a Guy

Allow me to share another thing about our monks, both living and not: they were/are not, foremost, martial artists. Gasp! Shaolin never have been. Shaolin are Buddhists first, and martial artists second, or third, or fourth.

Sure, everyone expects a Shaolin monk to be a Buddhist first, there's no element of shock to that piece of news that leaves one gasping for air. Are you telling us, however, that these masters, the old ones, had average or even sub-par martial arts skills?

[Fen]

Just a Guy:
Sorry for the bad spelling! Wrighting is not my stong point..

Also thats ok, I new you would not take me up on it! But let me know when you are ready...

Roc Doc!
I like it! Buddha bless you!!

NorthernShaolin:

So my question is....Do you also fight the same way by keeping your opponent off guard too?

You have made a good point here! If and when Just a Guy would like to demo his skills for you, we can do it here in Southern Oregon. This way it's half way for the both of you. Then we all can go to Dinner and chat about Kung Fu!

~Jason

[GeneChing]

There will be no book burnings at my place. Books are sacred. Even bad ones. We can still toast marshmallows though.

Independant book marketing is tricky. Have the publishers made any serious marketing attempts beyond the web? Is there a distributor for this book or is it completely vanity press? Do you have an ad budget? Are you sending out reader's copies? I'd be happy to discuss possibilities with the publishers. You know where to contact me.

BTW, here's yet another new Shaolin book coming at us this year, but we know this guy...