Who's the Master?

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
Sorry to bring the debate down out of the ionoshpere, but Wing Chun is not neurosurgery, neither in complexity nor gravity. It just isn't that complicated or profound.

But like neurosurgery it can save your life.
I often hear people say that Wing Chun is not complex, and I have to say that I don't agree. It is much more complex than it appears on the surface. Like an onion, you must go through many layers to get to it's core. Then again, maybe I'm just slow.

You can teach someone with less knowledge or understanding than you, and learn from anyone with more, but primarily your learning and your success or failure therewith is your responsibility, not any "Master's".

I could not agree more....... Some people seem to think that learning is passive, like watching the TV.

Education is a discipline with its own theories, fads and best practices ... about which I venture few MA instructors have spent much time learning or considering.

Excellent point!! IMHO, this is such a critical point that it should be re-emphasized. Just because you have a certain level of skill does not mean you can teach it. You can mimic how you were taught (maybe), but that does not mean that you are effectively communicating the material. Each student's ability to learn is different and a real teacher is skilled at identifying those needs and making some adjustments as needed. You can have a Black Belt in <insert name of MA here> and be a white belt in teaching. I'm sure we have all seen it many times.

I have seen "instructors" who seem to confuse - trying to impress others with how much they know or how "good" they are - with teaching. They are as different as fish and fowl. Teachers, like students, need to check their ego at the door.

Of course, it is also encumbent on the student to be open to learning and put in the effort to develop the skill. Even the greatest teachers cannot learn for you.

Everyone wants to think that what they are doing is the most profound and important thing on the planet ... but maybe treating it that way isn't the most offective way to teach, or to learn.

Really?? Everybody?? What I do is IMPORTANT, but only to me. And it is not profound, certainly not in the big scheme of things. There are moments of discovery that seem profound in that moment, but really, so many others have passed this way before that I would be naive to think that I am having any profound insights in the full sense of the term.

Nice points anerlich,
Thanks for posting them.

[sihing]

What's one persons trash is another's treasure...Learning WC can be very profound in one's journey through life, you never no someday it might save one of our lives, if it already hasn't. Compared to the many problems of the world it may not look profound but that is a Global perspective to which most of us have little chance to change or affect. In one of Steven Covey's books (7 habits one I think) he talks about the circle of influence (job performance) and circle of concern (Global warming). We should put the majority of our efforts towards the circle of influence because this is the area that concern's us the most and the one we can actually control to some extent. The other is out of our control base and should not be thought/worried about as much. Wing Chun is in our circle of influence and on that level is very profound for some, like Bruce Lee. For others it is just a fad and fades away after the allure is gone.

James

[anerlich]

What's one persons trash is another's treasure

That true ... not wishing to start an argument, but in my personal opinion Covey's book is monstrously overrated. Simplistic and trite. Then again, so are most self-help books. Your treasure is my trash. Not to say I'm right and you're wrong.

I'm probably biased - the worst boss I ever had in my life kept 7 Habits in pride of place on her desk. I could write several books on how incompetent, insensitive and mean she was. She was physically attractive, and I still fantasise about her ... but my fantasies all involve extreme violence rather than sex.

BTW, her gender wasn't an issue - I've had several fine female supervisors with whom I've gotten along famously since.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by anerlich
That true ... not wishing to start an argument, but in my personal opinion Covey's book is monstrously overrated. Simplistic and trite. Then again, so are most self-help books.

Anerlich,
Mr. Covey's books do offer simple concepts which should be useful for many. Common sense, in an age when common sense is becoming less and less common. The problem with the self-help movement is that people take everything as gospel. They are looking for the magic bullet to solve their most nagging problems. Jumping from fad to fad.

Just like Wing Chun cannot be learned from a book, neither can productivity, improved personal relationships, or whatever else you can think of. You have to get off your butt and do something. Not just read a book. It may be a catalyst for change, but You also need to think for yourself. Take and idea and ponder it. Does it really make sense? The problem is, that real success comes from hard work. People don't want to hear that.... they want the "secret" to success. In other words, a short cut. I once heard that the longest distance between two points is a shortcut. How true. If success were easy, everyone would be doing it.

These books/tapes/seminars seem to put people on a short-term frenzy akin to a sugar rush that just comes crashing down like the latest fad diet. They are only concepts, but people fail to change their underlying behaviour and quickly revert to the same-old thing in a few days. Feeling inspired?? Lay down for a little while and it will pass.

[sihing]

Funny you mention books, tapes and functions, sounds like you had a Amway business like I did. Books, tapes and functions were what we promoted the most when I was involved with this venture. The reason was to motivate and educate. The books did most of the education in the business, the tapes motivated with a little bit of education and the functions inspired and reinforced that this thing did work. Although I eventually quit Amway, mostly due to the city I was living in, I did learn allot from the experience and all those tapes I listened to(most of which I still have). Basically success in anything is a decision. It also helps when you enjoy doing what you are going to be successful at. Learning WC was a absolute joy for me and still is, so it was easy for myself to progress. When I began teaching it became even more pleasurable.

James

[Matrix]

James,

I tend to get my books and tapes from the library. It's much cheaper than the book store.

As for Multi-Level Marketing, I just don't have any aspirations of being part of someone's downline. There's better things to do with your time than be on the short end of a Ponzi scheme.

At least you learned some good lessons and moved on. With Wing Chun you have skills that will last a life time. Now that's value.

Peace,

[anerlich]

I once heard that the longest distance between two points is a shortcut. How true.

Ain't it just. The rest of your post is also correct.

[Miles Teg]

Nothing wrong with the self help movement. The self help books Ive read have so far helped me to quit smoking and lose 14 kg's (30 pounds). I seem to have a brighter outlook on life, and enjoy a better thought process.

For some people the values and ideology behind the books have been instilled in them from their parents or they have developed them themselves.

The 7 habits is one book that cant seem to hold my very short attention span. I thought Id try the audio version but still found my self dozing off after the first few minutes. Ive heard its a great book, I just cant get into it.

[anerlich]

Miles, I agree.

But the quality varies, and one's treasure is another's trash and v-v.

I quite like Tony Robbin's stuff, even though the firewalking he used to do was not my cup of tea, and he bears more than a slight resemblance appearance-wise to Frankenstein's monster.

Looks like Covey's book didn't do much for you either.

[Miles Teg]

Yeah Tony is good even though he can sometimes be a bit overbearing. I actually applied his neuro association technique to help me quit smoking and it worked like a dream.


No the 7 habits is not my cup of tea.

[sihing]

I like Tony Robbins also. I've read some of his books and have some of his audio. He has a process to help improve one's self and takes you through it step by step, sort of like a technology, but once again it is up to us to do the work. Actually I think one of Tony's programs is called "Master". I also like Deepak Chopra, although he is not really a "self help" guru, he has interesting concepts pertaining to the powers of the body and our true potentials, similar to kung-fu training and chi-kung practice. Tony's a little more exciting than Steven Covey, so I found it a better read/listen.

James

[Miles Teg]

I like Deepak too. His stuff is very thought provoking.

[Matrix]

Originally posted by Miles Teg
Nothing wrong with the self help movement. The self help books Ive read have so far helped me to quit smoking and lose 14 kg's (30 pounds). I seem to have a brighter outlook on life, and enjoy a better thought process.

Miles,
I agree. The problem is that many people don't stick to programs, want easy solutions to complex problems, and don't address the underlying behaviour. I too have read more than my fair share of these self-help books. I have learned over time to be a lot more discriminating. To think about new ideas may or may not work for me. Take what works for you, and throw away what does not. Otherwise you just end up jumping around with the latest fad, and accomplishing very little in terms of results.

Just based on the 80/20 rule, you can guesstimate that 80% of the people will not make any given program work for them.

[Ali Hamad Rahim]

I have a master degree in electronics, listening to some of the people on this forum almost makes me feel that all of that hard work for that piece of paper is nothing, but a piece of paper. God has bless me, with the good life because of my hard work and that piece of paper. Wow! Some people have a lot too learn. Once you learn a skill or trade in higher education you are respected by the degree of your studies. It always has been that way all over the world, why change it now? it has nothing to do with ego. It is truly identification on which you are in higher education. Without it, I may have made a different turn in my life,I don’t know maybe washing cars or something. Which is nothing wrong with that, we all have to do what has too be done. I guess getting out of high school for that piece of paper is for dummies, and people with ego trips.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

[Ernie]

pieces of paper don't hit back

nor does electronics , unless you stick finger in a socket

next time i'm in a fight I’ll be sure to find the person with the most degrees in the area to have my back ,

I can use his pocket protector as a shield and his many pencils as throwing darts

and if all that fails I will direct the beams of the sun through his bottle bottom glasses and incinerate my opponents