Who's the Master?

[YongChun]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
Ernie, will PM you later tonight.

Ray, yes "to become a real fighter takes time" -- but who wants to be a make-believe fighter? Most people won't be great boxers or BJJers, but that doesn't stop them from becoming the best they can or even becoming competant at what they do. They do that by fighting as part of their training. What you are describing is what I call "recreational martial artists": people in MAs, including WCK, who want to be entertained, not do anything combative, and think somehow (magically?) that they are developing good, sound fighting skills. These people are deluded.

One doesn't need to go through the art slowly, blah, blah, blah -- that's recreational MAs and leads to no real skill. You need to get into a combative environment immediately and return to it regularly, like boxers, bjjers, wrestlers, judoka, etc. all do. That's the only way to progress in developing fighting skills.

No disagreeing totally but if most students can't even handle unrealistic fighting involving standard Wing Chun with a bit of speed or even no speed, then what good does it do to beat the hell out of them so they go home bleeding (which is very easy to do and which is how a few Hong Kong schools train)?

We fight students according to their level. The better they get, the harder we push them but always with safety in mind. We have an Olympic calibre Judo guy who can easily sweep anyone to the concrete. However most beginner students don't know how to fall and a few concussions and broken bones won't help them any.

Those who hurry their martial arts in any style will all just end up looking like kickboxers from my experience. I have seen plenty of those types in Hung style, in Karate and in Wing Chun.

For us we have all types of people with various backgrounds. The grapplers can go into this mode anytime but they prefer to train on Wing Chun techniques. They have done all that grappling already for years and years. Likewise we have a few with boxing training and they have done all that but prefer to concentrate on Wing Chun also. These people can up the speed anytime and knock out the beginners but what's the use. As long as they can stay ahead of beginning students to challenge them that's good enough.

[AmanuJRY]

So, going back to the topic of teaching and learning, and in response to Ray's notion of it taking 10+ years to achieve any level of proficient fighting ability (within the techniques of chosen system), I ask;

Why is it, that it would take that long to develop that kind of skill?

and in response to comments on another thread;

Why would it take as long to learn a second style as it did the first??

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
So, going back to the topic of teaching and learning, and in response to Ray's notion of it taking 10+ years to achieve any level of proficient fighting ability (within the techniques of chosen system), I ask;

Why is it, that it would take that long to develop that kind of skill?

and in response to comments on another thread;

Why would it take as long to learn a second style as it did the first??

it's not how long but how ,

in the last few years i have worked out with guys that have up to 4 times the years i have and still run there own schools and they were empty

and i have run into kids with a few solid years that were good fights , just wired that way

depends on what you focus on i guess , you could get lost for a life time with techniques and this or that

or you could have a goal of becomeing effective and only focus on that

different strokes

[AmanuJRY]

Ok, how about in the field of the hobby MAist, does it still take 10+ years to learn to be proficient with WC??

[Ernie]

if it's a hobby the being honest with yourself you will never reach mastery ,what ever that means

you will be a master of a hobby

there are no time frames only good training and results
bad training may only produce minor results over a long period
good training good results in a short period

smart training constant results over a life time with respect to age and life style

hobby training
hobby results with alot of talking to fill the gaps

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Ernie
bad training may only produce minor results over a long period
good training good results in a short period

smart training constant results over a life time with respect to age and life style

So, what is good and bad training?

and,

Is it (good training) produced by the instructor or the instructee??

hobby training=hobby results with alot of talking to fill the gaps

I've chatted with a few of those.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
So, what is good and bad training?

and,

Is it (good training) produced by the instructor or the instructee??




I've chatted with a few of those.

what are your goals ? goals define what type of training you need ,

example i was correcting a gung fu brother of mine he is a older gentleman with various black belts

he has been training in wing chun for a few years now
and i came down on him because he kept reorting to a broken hip posture , bending at the waist reaching out to far

he looked right at me and said , i have no desire to be a fighter and i am in no hurry to get any better i just like to train and chat

after i wiped the look of disbelief off my face

i thanked him and said i was sorry for putting my goals and expectations on him

lessons learned every day

[Gangsterfist]

Personally I do not train to be a fighter either (in the ring sense). I train to defend myself and my loved ones, and want to use the most effecient way to take someone down.

If it really comes down to it, I would use any means necessary and that is how I try to train. IMHO, some people confuse ring fighting, actual combat, and street combat. They all have their differences. I am sure some people will argue this.

[YongChun]

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
So, going back to the topic of teaching and learning, and in response to Ray's notion of it taking 10+ years to achieve any level of proficient fighting ability (within the techniques of chosen system), I ask;

Why is it, that it would take that long to develop that kind of skill?

and in response to comments on another thread;

Why would it take as long to learn a second style as it did the first??

Actually you are correct. The leraning time for the next style would be a lot less. So much for my math.

[AmanuJRY]

Originally posted by Gangsterfist
Personally I do not train to be a fighter either (in the ring sense). I train to defend myself and my loved ones, and want to use the most effecient way to take someone down.

If it really comes down to it, I would use any means necessary and that is how I try to train. IMHO, some people confuse ring fighting, actual combat, and street combat. They all have their differences. I am sure some people will argue this.

Let's break this down (beause, I see this argument used a lot);

To be able to defend yourself or your family (or anyone else) with any form of hand to hand combat means you have to fight. Of course this is not sport-fighting, it is a means of self protection (or the protection of others, in the case of the family, etc.). Actual self-defence has very little to do with MA or physical combat. If, your aim is protecting yourself and loved ones, and your goal is to be efficient in that pursuit, the most effective means is prevention followed closely thereafter by self defence weapons (pepper-spray, guns etc.). If you wish to include hand to hand as a means (which IMO is a darn good idea) you absolutly have to accept the idea that you are training to be a fighter (not nessisarily in the sport sense, but even more so). To say that one trains for self defence, but not to be a fighter (ring or otherwise) is a misnomer. Fighting is fighting regardless of ruleset, of course the strategies and tactics will differ, but it's still fighting.

Now, as for the classification of fighting types, there are only two;

sport fighting - with various rule sets, this includes everything from slap-boxing with a friend to UFC/K-1 stuff.

and

actual combat - with various circumstances, this includes everything from street fights to war (hand to hand aspects).

with one element that can be of either of these two catagories, which is;

challenge matches - depending on whether a rule set is agreed upon or not, and the severity of the challenge (life or death or not).

MAists can be classified as either those who train to fight, or those who train for hobby, or both. Those who train to fight can adopt a rule set for sport or go for all-out combat application, still their object is fighting.

So, your comment, G-fist is moot. You train to fight, and adopt no rule set for sport, were you to do so you would still be training to fight.