"Photo sharing or stealing: Basic respect"

[Kai Uwe Pel]

Photo sharing or stealing: Basic respect

During my studies of Luo Guang Yu's Seven Star Mantis Boxing, I was presented with a full size original photograph of Luo Guang Yu. When some people say 'original' they seem to mean just a physical photograph - not a digital file. But I mean the actual original photograph.

During my teaching years in Germany I used the web domain www.chinwoo.de (1996). This is no longer in my use, the domain is now owned by Nicolai Schild and the content has changed. When I was using it I made a decision to publish some of my materials in order to promote mantis boxing. One of these would be the Luo Guang Yu photograph.

Before putting it online I hesitated. Was I being naive? Would some people take it without permission and use it to promote themselves falsely? Surely they would just be sharing knowledge and be happy to acknowledge the true source?

I decided to alter the photograph digitally and see what happened for myself in the future. I made two alterations, one with the overall size, and one to a detail in the photo.

So, let's look at the photo and the area of alteration.

Luo Guang Yu's Fong Tien Gek Lance photo:


So, there were originally more dots on the rug but I blacked out all but 5.
Important point: the 5 dots version was ONLY available from my website as I alone made the alteration.

Now. I was never asked for permission to use the photo during the time it was online. But what happened next? Yes, it started popping up on mantis websites that I read from time to time. I have 8 quick links for recent examples of this - but there are more.

Now there are different aspects to this. First, it is normal to share and use knowledge and records to promote the art we all love - I don't mind that and I will publish the full size un-altered original on our website next week for all to see and use freely. As I have done with the Luo Guang Yu Beng Bu photo-set.

Re-using it without asking is just lacking basic manners or respect. But, what really insults me is when people later claim they got it from their own teachers at the same time as displaying the 5 dots version! Those people are telling lies to my face. Or maybe they were told lies by someone else and they just blindly follow without using their mind to think matters through carefully.

I recently enquired of one of my 5 dots versions and was told in a rude and insulting tone that the photo was acquired directly from their own teacher. Lets take a look at the link and see if it matches my own version that was only available through my website ...it does.

Steve Cottrell
http://www.authentickungfu.com/seven_star/sifu/lky.html
http://www.authentickungfu.com/seven...ifu/luogek.jpg

I don't appreciate that kind of behaviour. I will publish the original next week to show you my own nature. I would ask all mantis practitioners to use basic codes of respect when sharing information, but most of all - to use their mind for discerning between what they hear and real life experiences.

Kai Uwe Pel
www.chinwoomen.com

[sayloc]

I can see why you are frustrated, but when you post something on the web anyone can get it. Make sure it is something you dont mind getting out.

I think if they did "steal" it that their bad energy will come back to haunt them.

You are doing a nice thing to post it and I along with many others appreciate it. I would not let a few dishonorable people change your true nature. I wouldnt spend much time worrying about it because then they are stealing your time along with the picture.

I can understandwhy someone who recieved th pic from his teacher would not believe it was stolen.

there is a way that you can disable the right buttton on the mouse so things cant be copied from the net.

have a good day

[MantisifuFW]

List members,


The picture in question was given to me in a digital format as a gift by Sifu Anthony Clark of Oregon and has been on display on my website for about ten years. When it was given to me, I asked Sifu Clark where he had obtained the photo and he said he got it from Shifu Lee Kam Wing. I asked and he gave permission for me to display it on my website. After that, I put it up for everyone to have just as I distributed the first public photos of Wong Long's memorial, the first displaying of the student/ teacher picture of Wong Hon Fun and even as I share rare historical photos every chance I get in the Quarterly and online. You will find those photos on many people's websites, without attribution, and I have no problem with this. I have even seen glossy paper copies of the pictures on our site given as gifts. It is most gratifying.

Shifu Pel and I had this conversation privately about a month ago. At that time he offered no details, as he has here on this forum, for the picture's origin but simply made the claim that the photo was his and some threat that I would be "exposed". I explained the picture's origin as I know it, and he did not respond further or offer any evidence. I guess this is his response.

As for the picture on my site, it has been there for nearly ten years. It has been downloaded countless times and is on display in many schools around the world. It and the other pictures are provided in a format that prints on glossy paper really well. Some even have borders on them so that they look really nice in a frame. If you haven't seen them, you should.

At the time of this writing, I have not even looked at the picture on display at my site to search for the markers Shifu Pel has described. I must admit that having seen this photo over the last ten years on other Lee Kam Wing websites and a very clear version in Kung Fu Qigong magazine in an article by John Chang, I am not very concerned. It, like countless pictures of Bruce Lee, is in the public domain. It has never been anything to me other than a well-composed photo of a respected master.

Shifu Pel asks if someone would display a photo to promote himself. Personally, over the near decade the photo has been on my site, I have never had anyone say, "Wow, you have a great photo on your site! I want to learn Mantis Boxing from you!" Nor have I ever made any claims other than that it was very kind of Shifu Clark to share that and many other photos and information.

The initial idea for my website was that people from around the world would list their schools. I wanted to promote mantis boxing with a mailing list, photos, articles and even a calendar of events. Not all that came to pass. The world-wide listing has been a success, the articles are now in Mantis Quarterly, and that calendar thing...well, I have never been good at keeping schedules on myself much less on everyone else.

If the photo came from Shifu Pel those many years ago, then I appreciate his initially making it available to the public. I will, however, happily make public attribution to Shifu Tony Clark, who provided it to me.

Steve Cottrell

[BeiTangLang]

To see the 5 dot version,....

http://www.itswahq.freeserve.co.uk/p...hoto_index.htm

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...an+Yu%22&hl=en

http://www.shaolinlomita.com/masters.htm#yuk

That was from a quick search,...
I have heard there are also "hard-published" materialswith this same "5 dot" image,...including a very recently released book on 7* Mantis.
I guess they all stole it & are selling it,......or are they just sharing an image that has always been shared freely??

At what point does history become public domain? At the point when people are willing to stop hoarding it & claiming it as "theirs" & share it with the world freely.

At any rate, this is not a topic for the mantis board; this is a topic that was originaly a private conversation that was brought here for some reason other than to share talk about mantis technique, forms or history.

Both side of the issue were addressed & I am closing this thread.

Best wishes to all,...
~BTL