Defense against a horizontal knife slash

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

FngSaiYuk / BL,

The problem actually is that it's very hard to detect someone is using a knife. A good knife fighter conceals his weapon and the first draw is the slash. You might not have the luxuary to get out of range and decide.

So basically, your unarmed techniques should cover your vital points irrespective of whether they have a knife or not. And yes you'll get cut, but that's the good bit, the bad outcome is dying.

Knives being a contact weapon can slash dozons of times in a split second. your training can't be useful if it deals with a particular strike at a certain angle etc. Because it is a probabilistic space that you need to cover.

If you have the luxuary of range, try to find a weapon that has a longer range than a knife, or even things you can throw. Otherwise, focus on the shoulder movements as you would do with unarmed combat and try to get your opponent to over commit.

[rogue]

* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
* Attempt to draw the attacker into a position where I can flank the weapons attack zone
* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
* When flanking the weapons attack zone, attempt control of the weapon while occupying the opponents attention with repeated, quick strikes to vulnerable and distracting areas (eyes, throat
* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone
* When any amount of control over weapon is gained, attempt to break opponents structure and attempt disarming
* Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone

You're trying to duel against a knife.

"while occupying the opponents attention with repeated, quick strikes to vulnerable and distracting areas (eyes, throat".

Bad, everytime you try that you're within his strike zone. A good knife fighter can also use his free arm to counter that stuff and then gut you with the knife at the same time. The most succesful work I've seen against a knife was when the unarmed guy was more agressive against the knife user. I think the common version is "pat, control, beat the living *&^% out of the knifer, then seek first aid help before you bleed out".

[FngSaiYuk]

rogue, I agree, which is why the 'occupying opponents attention' is while flanking the weapons attack zone... basically if the knife is in the attackers right hand and held point out, then get to the wielders right side, gripping the knife hand to control the knife and prevent the opponent from shifting the knife's position... hopefully that illustrates the idea.

Now a good point brought up is that of protecting the vitals. I've kind of assumed this all along, sacrificing the 'outside' regions of the arms and then shins in lieu of permitting a slash to get near the torso or the head.

I'm curious... has anyone here have any first hand experience dealing with a knife wielding opponent? Not drills or sparring, mind you, but in a scenario where the opponent was actively trying to disable or kill.

[joedoe]

I have always been told that unless you have a far superior position, you do not want to grab the knife hand. Once you grab the knife hand, their automatic reaction will be to jerk back, which will result in you getting cut across the hand and possibly incapacitating one of your defensive weapons.

[FngSaiYuk]

The grabbing of the knife hand would be from a flanked position... basically from BEHIND the knife.

Yes don't ever attempt to grab a knife head on.

My normal reaction if *I* had the knife (mind you in training drills) and my opponent reached towards me, is to slash at the closest limb.

Anyways, I'm gonna have to see what happens the next time I get the guys over to play w/the rubber knives.

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by joedoe
... you do not want to grab the knife hand. Once you grab the knife hand, their automatic reaction will be to jerk back, which will result in you getting cut across the hand and possibly incapacitating one of your defensive weapons.

That's why you grab it with a two on one.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
That's why you grab it with a two on one.

As in grab it with both hands? I guess that makes more sense, because you want to control the weapon. Have you got anything to add on how to deal with the situation given?

[Knifefighter]

Slashes are less lethal than stabs. The majority of knife fatalies come from stabs/thrusts. Many slash type cuts are mitigated somewhat when they move across clothing, which tends to bind the blade up.

To defend the slash, you've got to get it either after it is passing by or catch it at the end/begining of its arc.

I have interviewed a number of people who have survived knife attacks and/or disarmed their opponents. Several who got the knife away did so by grabbing the knife blade itself.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Slashes are less lethal than stabs. The majority of knife fatalies come from stabs/thrusts. Many slash type cuts are mitigated somewhat when they move across clothing, which tends to bind the blade up.

To defend the slash, you've got to get it either after it is passing by or catch it at the end/begining of its arc.

I have interviewed a number of people who have survived knife attacks and/or disarmed their opponents. Several who got the knife away did so by grabbing the knife blade itself.

Fascinating. Defending either at the start or end of the arc makes a lot of sense. Actually grabbing the blade itself seems counterintuitive, but I guess in a desperate situation you just have to do it.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Ego_Extrodinaire
FngSaiYuk / BL,

The problem actually is that it's very hard to detect someone is using a knife. A good knife fighter conceals his weapon and the first draw is the slash. You might not have the luxuary to get out of range and decide.

So basically, your unarmed techniques should cover your vital points irrespective of whether they have a knife or not. And yes you'll get cut, but that's the good bit, the bad outcome is dying.

Knives being a contact weapon can slash dozons of times in a split second. your training can't be useful if it deals with a particular strike at a certain angle etc. Because it is a probabilistic space that you need to cover.

If you have the luxuary of range, try to find a weapon that has a longer range than a knife, or even things you can throw. Otherwise, focus on the shoulder movements as you would do with unarmed combat and try to get your opponent to over commit.

great comment. and you're right, you never know what your opponent is packing. I think that's why it's important to stay vigilant of his / her hands and try to remain aware of how they are moving.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by FngSaiYuk
rogue, I agree, which is why the 'occupying opponents attention' is while flanking the weapons attack zone... basically if the knife is in the attackers right hand and held point out, then get to the wielders right side, gripping the knife hand to control the knife and prevent the opponent from shifting the knife's position... hopefully that illustrates the idea.

Now a good point brought up is that of protecting the vitals. I've kind of assumed this all along, sacrificing the 'outside' regions of the arms and then shins in lieu of permitting a slash to get near the torso or the head.

I'm curious... has anyone here have any first hand experience dealing with a knife wielding opponent? Not drills or sparring, mind you, but in a scenario where the opponent was actively trying to disable or kill.

yah, i've had knives / blades from 4 attackers in everyone of my major organs at once whilst looking down 2 barrels either side. I think at this time as long as they perceived me not to be in any way shape or form intending to react, they were happy to let me live. I think at this stage you can pretty much resign yourself to submission ( even if they strip you naked and want you on your kness) , humiliated is better than dead.

I also had some psycho run in while I was visiting at my parents home weilding a long screwdriver / knife / car tool looking thing looking for my lil bro who was upstairs and so dealt with it myself. Granted he wasn't trained in ma, but a few well planted feet were ample. I think you just need to understand how they're operating.

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

BL,

When dealing with multiple opponents best to deal with them one at a time. I mean talking can be a strategy to work one off against the other. As in the street fighting post, keep moving so that they'll be running into one another - allowing you having to deal with one at a time. Know where your escape routes are and work yourself towards it.

But if say, a whole gang just comes out from no where and surrounds you, that's bad especially when guns are involved as well. I probably would act crazy and say that I've got ebola or something.

The way you dealt with that maniac shows you're one hell of a fighter eventhough I know you are modest saying your non Mak skill is Yi Ban Ban.

[blooming lotus]

thx, but didn't save me that me that time........

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

blooming lotus,

KF can't deal with everything. Sometimes survival is the best of a bad option. If in a fight everthing is just a blurr.

[blooming lotus]

You're right and as I've said before, self defence is the means and not the goal of my training. You can minimum your odds of "loosing" or becomming injured, but life is a volitile thing and there will always be a situation you didn't train for !

I have decided to leave the forum permanently so
cheers EGO and good luck with your recovery programme

BL