Defense against a horizontal knife slash

[Serpent]

Just go already. Why do you have to post on every thread that you're leaving. No one cares.

[CaptinPickAxe]

honestly...

BL musta spent too much time at Tyrone's party
<--------

[SPJ]

Many of my posts are inspired by BL.

My posting on Chan was started with BL posts with Hendrik.

I think I have to focus on MA again.

Dharma talk was restarted. Her input was missed.

Take a break.

You have many friends in the forum.

[Meat Shake]

Back on track...

"Keep focused on the weapon and it's attack zone"


Weve been doing quite a bit of knife work lately... We never watch the blade directly, rather watching it via peripheral vision. Almost all of the disarms we have been working are 1 vs. 2 arms, and almost all impliment a wrist lock to force the knife from the attackers hand.
Theres a lot more, but Im hella tired right now...

[Oso]

ok, now that knifefighter is looking i'll give this a shot.

versus 'backhand' slash with the knife in their right hand with the point away, otherwise it's not really a slash (???)

assumption: I have anticipated the attack enough to allow me to move inside the arc of the blade.

my left hand comes over the top of his arm to grab as near the wrist as I am able while my left hand is doing the same under the arm. my hands are big enough and my grip strong enough that I feel I can hinder the movement of the hand adequately enough at the wrist w/o wrapping up the fingers and thereby putting my hands closer to the blade.

as I do this I keep pressure into his body with mine and trap the arm against my body w/ my elbows. after my grip is secured I keep my elbows posted on my stomach. this, i think, means that he has to fight against the rigidness of my forearm bones versus me trying to keep his arm from moving around with just my muscles.

while doing this I keep my feet moving towards him, he will be trying to pull away and if I can keep close to him then he has to work harder to do so.

this is all hopefully momentary as my goal is to break or damage the elbow enough while I have the arm trapped for the knife to be released and for me to then be able to punish him for being so cheeky

so basically:

get inside the arc
trap the knife hand w/ two on one
trap the knife arm w/ upper arm
keep elbows posted on body
keep the feet moving to stay in contact with him.

???

[FngSaiYuk]

If I read your description correctly, wouldn't the knife wielder be able to rotate the blade and stab it into your torso, since you've locked the wielding arm?

[Oso]

no

trap the knife hand w/ two on one
trap the knife arm w/ upper arm

so theoretically, i've got his hand/wrist in mine and his arm pinned between my body and my arm.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by SPJ
Many of my posts are inspired by BL.

My posting on Chan was started with BL posts with Hendrik.

I think I have to focus on MA again.

Dharma talk was restarted. Her input was missed.

Take a break.

You have many friends in the forum.

No, she has one friend on the forum, which is you, apparently.

Anyway, it's academic - she won't leave.

Let's get back to the knife stuff, huh.

[FngSaiYuk]

Originally posted by Oso
no


trap the knife hand w/ two on one
trap the knife arm w/ upper arm


so theoretically, i've got his hand/wrist in mine and his arm pinned between my body and my arm.

Ok, I must be having a difficult time understanding.

Can you describe the 2 on 1 a bit more clearly?
Are you facing the opponent or is your back or side against the opponent?
How do you step inside the slash?

Also, I'm thinking someone who isn't going to make wild swings with the knife, so they'll likely be rather compact.

[Ming Yue]

In Oso's scenario, as you face the opponent, he swings the knife backhand, point out so it moves in an arc from your right to your left.

right hand grabs wrist before the arc is completed, rising left hand strikes/grabs elbow and snakes over for the pin. (you're flanking at his right shoulder, facing him).

similar tech for a forehand swing, I believe: grab inside arc with left hand, step inside and snake right arm around for bar/break.

[Oso]

FSY, he's using his right hand and I step outside of it prior to the wrap.

it's got to be dynamic, I'm not going to stand there and wrestle with him, enter, wrap and control the arm and hand/wrist and with footwork and waist torque, damage the elbow enough to prevent further use of it.

in this specific scenario, i've got my hands tight on his wrist with my thumbs on the back of his hand...hopefully...in any event I'm gonig to attempt to keep the wrist/hand from moving as much as possible.

i think supposed 'knife defense' techniques might be valid against someone who is not a trained fighter or a knifefighter. anyone who has had any training is going to cut the **** out of you.

i think supposed knife defense IS to mitigate the damage and hopefully not get you killed immediately. i think it's unrealistic to assume you won't get cut, or even to assume you won't get cut bad.

the best knife defense is probably 30' and solid knowledge of gun use.

but, of course, being ******* martial artists like we are...we'll continue play with knife defenses.

[FngSaiYuk]

Excellent points.

I just like to be somewhat mentally and physically prepared for possibilities. Not to mention we were having some fun playing with the rubber knives, and I was getting quite good at the timing of stabs and thrusts w/these particular guys. I have no idea how things would work out in a REAL fight, but in practice I got quite good against the stabs and thrusts.

It's those horizontal slashes that I'm having the roughest time with. They slice by really quickly... I think what I'll have to try out the next time is some sort of sacrifice of blood in order to survive the attack.

Sooo... other than the less meaty parts of the limbs, what other areas of the body are 'sacrificeable' in order to survive the attack, and what techniques would make best use of the situation?

[richard sloan]

Originally posted by SPJ
Get a bat or a short staff or a frying pan.

Or take your coat or shirt off and make a rope by twisting it and slap or whip the opponent's hand or use a thick belt with a buckle.

You need something to create a safe distance from the wielding knife.

A shoe or whatever.

If you were serious about those suggestions, by the time any of that gets done I'd bet on you getting stuck...

Someone mentioned something that I totally agree with- if you engage with someone armed with a knife, you should expect to get cut up, and I also think you've also made some serious avoidance errors. Personally, it's not easy to corner someone who *really* wants to get away from you. But I realize this is a totally fabricated worst case scenario with guitar solos and hot babe defense.

Something someone else mentioned which I also agree with is to use both your hands to go for the knife hand of the attacker, if that is what you decide to do.

If you're really worried about having to fight off a knifer, you should carry.

A gang member I used to know once told me it was like blackjack. In a lot of situations when you have to decide when to hit, you have to assume the dealer has the higher hand. So it is on the street.

I think a better question to ask is what can you do to have avoided getting in the corner.

If you start to think about it, there is a definite prejudice against guns amongst MAs, which I think speaks more to ego than any kind of understanding of how things on the street can work. It would be like thinking iron weapons should never be used in place of bronze.

One reason people train in MAs is to give themselves an edge against opponents...same reason why people carry weapons. You should see the assortment of weaponry found in the bushes outside the NYMFC courtrooms when they put the metal detectors in, lol... So why not just give yourself the best edge, as you have to assume that anyone attacking you (and if they are coming at you with a knife they are looking to kill you) is armed at best in a similar fashion as you, at worst, they way outmatch you.

I've never seen a pulled knife or machette end a fight, but I've seen the mere flash of a grip send people running away...

[Ego_Extrodinaire]

BL

"You're right and as I've said before, self defence is the means and not the goal of my training. You can minimum your odds of "loosing" or becomming injured, but life is a volitile thing and there will always be a situation you didn't train for !"

Thats right. To have the best odds of surviving (for a given level of skill etc), we have to be at peace and not be distracted by the waht ifs. If we do, we do to the best of our ability when called upon to.

"I have decided to leave the forum permanently so
cheers EGO and good luck with your recovery programme"

You have been a great inspiration to me and as such your departure will be greatly missed. Hope you find new trolls to troll in your new endeavors. I will do my best to follow through my recovery program with your inspiration as wind behind my sails. So it is good bye dear friend from the KFM forum.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by Serpent
No, she has one friend on the forum, which is you, apparently.

Anyway, it's academic - she won't leave.

Let's get back to the knife stuff, huh.

hey that's just not true...if you count ego and his alters that'd have to be 5 minimum!!!!!!!!!






I'm good with 5