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Thread: Baji

  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    Not sure why the rant, but ok. I guess I should have separated them by Shaolin/Wudang or Shaolin/Taiji, Bagua, Xing Yi, or whatever. Thank you.
    did i rant? where? lol

    anyway...
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    did i rant? where? lol

    anyway...
    It keeps the subscribers.

  3. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    The idea of "internal" was made up by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's
    It might be more accurate to say "internal" was popularized in the modern world, "by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's"

    The Nei-yeh ("inward training") is the oldest known Taoist text predating even "The Tao Te Ching" by at least a couple of hundred years! It's focus is entirely upon inner, mental, development. It is unrelated to the martial arts, but it clearly refers to the training of the mind as "inner"!

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    It might be more accurate to say "internal" was popularized in the modern world, "by a guy in the late 1800's early 1900's"

    The Nei-yeh ("inward training") is the oldest known Taoist text predating even "The Tao Te Ching" by at least a couple of hundred years! It's focus is entirely upon inner, mental, development. It is unrelated to the martial arts, but it clearly refers to the training of the mind as "inner"!
    Are you referring to the Nei Ching or a completely other text?

    Yes, your syntax is more correct than mine. "Internal" as an aspect has been recognized and studied for as long as there has been written language. probably longer.

    the idea of internal martial arts in my opinion likely comes from martial practice in religious monastic settings. Where nei gong or internal work (meditation, qi gong, *prana yama*, et al) related to religious work was having fallout in the martial arts activities of those monks who practiced that as a way of their living and being.

    the overlap would have occurred and been recognized long before it became ...well, convoluted into the mess of thinking that it is these days. Exercises such as various iron body skills and breathing skills as well as control of blood flow practiced and used in context with martial arts had been around for hundreds of years before the idea of "internal martial arts" and "external martial arts" even came about. So, here we are now where for some reasons we think that there is some thing inherently different about martial arts.

    In fact, there is effective training for fighting, there is effective training for whole body maintenance, there is effective training for fitness, there is effective nutritional guidance, and so on in many martial arts that are not considered internal and these things are also lacking in many practitioners that do consider themselves internal and as well of course, it is included in many so called external regimens.

    In essence, the water was muddied. But nowadays it is clearing and you can see all the different color stones at the bottom of the river. It's clear which are of value and which shall be eroded away with time and eventuality.
    Last edited by David Jamieson; 05-04-2010 at 04:23 PM.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #200
    It is a completely different text. It was buried within the Kuan-tzu and, for some reason, ignored for a couple of thousand years. It dates to at least the middle of the 4th century B.C. in its written form and probably comes from an even earlier oral tradition going back 500 or more years which brings it into a contemporaneous origin with Buddhism.

    Harold Roth does a very thorough exegesis of the text and his translation of the text can be found on the net. Just put "nei-yeh" into Google. If you are interested and cannot find it, let me know and I'll be happy to e-mail a copy to you.

    "Original Tao", by Harold Roth you can get off of Amazon!

  6. #201
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    Really Interested in the Yi Jing? Its history is complex and there is no pat answer:

    Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World: The Yijing (I Ching, or Classic of Changes) and Its Evolution in China (Richard Lectures) (Hardcover)

    Dr. Richard J. Smith - George and Nancy Rupp Professor of Humanities and Professor of History at Rice University. He is author, coauthor, or coeditors of a dozen scholarly books, including China's Cultural Heritage: The Qing Dynasty, 1644-1912 and Cosmology, Ontology, and Human Efficacy: Essays in Chinese Thought.

    Review
    "A major contribution to the fields of Chinese intellectual history and religion. To my knowledge it is the first work in a Western language that attempts an overall picture of the place of the Yijing in Chinese history and culture." -- Joseph A. Adler, Kenyon College, author of Chinese Religious Traditions

    "A very substantial contribution to the field of Chinese studies. The scholarship is prodigious. There are similar works in Chinese, but in the West this book stands very much alone." -- Edward Shaughnessy, University of Chicago, author of Rewriting Early Chinese Texts and translator of I Ching: The Classic of Changes

    "Picking up from where he left off with his important volume entitled Fortune-tellers and Philosophers: Divination in Traditional Chinese Society (1991), Richard Smith continues with his stout defense of traditional cosmology in late imperial China in this new volume demonstrating the scope of the Yijing in enabling Chinese at all levels of society to voice their opinions through its complexities and mysteries. Especially important is Smith's documentation of the widespread use of the Changes in Qing (1644-1911) times for divination. Equally significant is Smith's presentation of its ongoing place as one of the Classics during an era when "evidential studies" and its philological "toolkit" had poked historical holes in the classical canon." -- Benjamin A. Elman, Princeton University

    Review

    "A major contribution to the fields of Chinese intellectual history and religion. To my knowledge it is the first work in a Western language that attempts an overall picture of the place of the Yijing in Chinese history and culture." -- Joseph A. AdlerKenyon College, author of Chinese Religious Traditions


    http://www.amazon.com/Fathoming-Cosm...3020039&sr=1-1
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  7. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    Is Baji considered a Shaolin style or belonging to the Internal group- Taiji, Bagua, XingYi, etc. and why?
    Kfson,

    I have always had a strange fascination with this style. I never got to practice, however and unfortunately I don't think that I will be exposed to it in the forseeable future.

    You will find a lot of useful information in the following link:

    http://www.bajimen.com/index.php?page=baji#origin

    HW108

  8. #203
    Also, it might be a good idea to take note of the history of Piquazhang, a style that was said to be practiced as complimentary method to Bajiquan, so as to counteract its "hardness".

    I know enough to say that like most, if not all kung fu styles, Bajiquan has a fundamental Internal (which DO exist, despite some of the more uniformed comments in this thread) side to it. However, the style of Piquazhang apparently emphasizes the Internals to a level that Baji does not, hence it is said that these two arts were practiced together to create a "balance".

    HW108

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by kfson View Post
    Is Baji considered a Shaolin style or belonging to the Internal group- Taiji, Bagua, XingYi, etc. and why?
    Neither.

    It has no connection to Shaolin but is also not an internal style. It's external. It's only relationship to Taji, Bagua and Xingyi is that it is classified as "Wudang". Wudang does not mean "internal". I'll leave that messy terminology to be argued out by everyone else.

    However, the style of Piquazhang apparently emphasizes the Internals to a level that Baji does not, hence it is said that these two arts were practiced together to create a "balance".
    lol

    Pigua is no more internal than Baji. Sure, it's a little softer but that just means that it's a little softer. Pigua is not even considered Wudang. It's a Hui art (moslem) It's mainly practiced together with Baji because Baji and Pigua developed, geographically, in the same little village and surrounding area. Any explanations about soft+hard and balance and all that rot are after the fact explanations. The real reason they are practiced together is because in a place like Canzhou, it's near impossible to isolate the practitioners from each other.

  10. #205
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    Omar,
    So whats the difference between the Pigua in Da Shen Pigua and other pigua?

    I have a scroll that was given to me by Sifu Chow Keun, and it reads Shaolin pigua men. He has the same scroll in this pic, maybe you can see it in the back.



    Just acurious, not debating with anyone
    Last edited by Eddie; 05-05-2010 at 01:52 AM.
    得 心 應 手

    蔡 李 佛 中 國 武 術 學 院 - ( 南 非 )

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardwork108 View Post
    Also, it might be a good idea to take note of the history of Piquazhang, a style that was said to be practiced as complimentary method to Bajiquan, so as to counteract its "hardness".

    I know enough to say that like most, if not all kung fu styles, Bajiquan has a fundamental Internal (which DO exist, despite some of the more uniformed comments in this thread) side to it. However, the style of Piquazhang apparently emphasizes the Internals to a level that Baji does not, hence it is said that these two arts were practiced together to create a "balance".

    HW108
    lol you can't help yourself can you, even when you admit you have not trained in the style or studied it in anyway you still have to call others comments uninformed

    nice to see you got owned on this thread by someone who actually studies the art

  12. #207
    1. pi gua is a large system that has many empty hand forms and weapons

    2. ba ji has its own system

    and yes, as pointed out, practitioners of both systems exchanged their learnings in cang zhou area.

    3. ba ji also incorporated some stuff from shaolin such as jing gang ba shi. some yi jing jing and also some daoist breathing exercises--

    4. origins of ba ji are still under active research

    5. da sheng pi gua is a long arm monkey style. great saint is the monkey king sun wu kong.

    ---

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post
    Neither.

    It has no connection to Shaolin but is also not an internal style. It's external. It's only relationship to Taji, Bagua and Xingyi is that it is classified as "Wudang". Wudang does not mean "internal". I'll leave that messy terminology to be argued out by everyone else.
    To add to your statement: Shaolin does teach Baji sets because it contains wonderful concepts that should be learnt.

  14. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish View Post


    lol

    Pigua is no more internal than Baji.
    I disagree with you and your "lol". Pigua has elements that are not present in Baji and vice versa. Also, Pigua is seen as the softer style, hence a "balance" to Baji, a compliment (Yin/Yang). Why, combine two arts that do not compliment each other?


    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish
    Sure, it's a little softer but that just means that it's a little softer.
    A "little softer" would mean that the style will balance a style that is a "little harder"!

    Just like Pigua's emphasis on ciruclar and open hand techniques can balance Baji's emphasis on straight line/ closed fist techniques.


    Quote Originally Posted by omarthefish
    Pigua is not even considered Wudang. It's a Hui art (moslem) It's mainly practiced together with Baji because Baji and Pigua developed, geographically, in the same little village and surrounding area.
    I am just glad that ballet dancing did not develop in the same area. lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Omarthefish
    Any explanations about soft+hard and balance and all that rot are after the fact explanations. The real reason they are practiced together is because in a place like Canzhou, it's near impossible to isolate the practitioners from each other.
    Again, it seems many would disagree with you. the general opinion that I have come across is that the two styles compliment each in a way that fits corresponding Chinese phylosophy - hard/soft; Yin/Yang, etc.

    http://www.oslowutan.com/index.php?p...azhang&lang=en

    Having said all the above, I will mention that if you are happy in your belief then that is fine too, as I am presenting my opinion based on what I know about kung fu and of others who actually practice these arts.

  15. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    lol you can't help yourself can you, even when you admit you have not trained in the style or studied it in anyway you still have to call others comments uninformed
    My reference to the uninformed comments of others was regarding the existance of the Internals and NOT in regards Baji or Pigua.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost
    nice to see you got owned on this thread by someone who actually studies the art
    Don't get carried away in your delusional world of mixed martial arts. So far, and as far as I can see, the only people who have been owned in these forums were MMA-ists who come in and make clueless remarks on traditional kung fu practice, when they themselves have only trained MCdojo kungfu together with their usual bjj and tae kwon do...LOL

    By the way, implyiing that Olympic weight training qualifications will help your Internal kung fu was not too smart a thing to do either, Mr Frost.

    However, and as always, thanks for the laughs.

    HW108

    PS, (1): I hope that you do eventually find a genuine kung fu school to train in.

    PS. (2): Try and contribute to the subject matter of this thread like the rest of us have done (without referring to BJJ, Tae Kwon Do and Olympic Weight training, of course...)

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