Baji

[kfson]

i am just glad that ballet dancing did not develop in the same area. Lol

Ha! ...................

[omarthefish]

I would respectively disagree with Omar regarding classifying bajiquan as "external". ...

For anyone paying attention, RAF and I have been respectfully disagreeing on this subject for year. It's a friendly disagreement and he and I even met in Beijing one time for lunch. Mainly, IMO, it comes down to subtle differences in how we perceive the idea "internal" but more than that, IMHO, I think that Liu Yunqiao (RAF's branch) decided to blur the line and teach Baji as in Internal art whereas Zhang Xiangqu (my branch and Zhang was close friends with Liu btw) did not.

Where RAF takes the Adam Hsu line that "there is no internal and external, only high level and low level ability" I take a different approach. I recognize clear differences between internal and external but do not feel that an external approach is inferior. It's only inferior in theory. The theoretical limit of skill is higher with an internal approach so if you in in an external art and you fear that you may be approaching the theoretical limit of human ability in your art...then maybe your external approach is limiting. For the rest of us non-proffesional elites, the debate is not terribly relevant.

Omar,
So whats the difference between the Pigua in Da Shen Pigua and other pigua?

I have a scroll that was given to me by Sifu Chow Keun, and it reads Shaolin pigua men. He has the same scroll in this pic, maybe you can see it in the back.



Just acurious, not debating with anyone

I'm in the very unusual position of having been exposed to a little of both. I only trained the "Da Sheng" version but the other one is all over the place in Xi'an. IMO, Da Sheng Pigua is more "Shaolin" and the other one is more like "Wudang" in terms of Shenfa. The horse stances are different and Da sheng power is closer to Choi Li Fut...IMHO...where northern Pigua as its name (Tong Bei Pigua) suggests spreads power out more through the back. You don't see the big diagonal leaning wit curves from foot, through the back, out to the other hand in Da Sheng Pigua.

[Eddie]

cool. thanks omar.

where did you train dashen pigua?

[omarthefish]

I disagree with you and your "lol". Pigua has elements that are not present in Baji and vice versa.

I don't understand what your point it here? What does any of that have to do with "internal/external"?

Also, Pigua is seen as the softer style, hence a "balance" to Baji, a compliment (Yin/Yang). Why, combine two arts that do not compliment each other?

I never said they do not compliment each other. I also have no problem with people combining them. My argument is that the "balance" thing is an ex-post facto explanation. The reason for the combination is that every martial artist in Cangzhou has learned at least a little of both. Youd have to make a concious decision to not combine them.

Again, it seems many would disagree with you. the general opinion that I have come across is that the two styles compliment each in a way that fits corresponding Chinese phylosophy - hard/soft; Yin/Yang, etc.

http://www.oslowutan.com/index.php?p...azhang&lang=en

As I just mentioned, I have been having this disagreement with RAF for years now. Our branch does not combine them. Zhang Xiangwu did not teach Pigua. His "brother" Lu Yunqiao, did. So this disagreement over the importance of Pigua goes back several generations now.

Having said all the above, I will mention that if you are happy in your belief then that is fine too, as I am presenting my opinion based on what I know about kung fu and of others who actually practice these arts.

And I am presenting my opinion based on my experience training Bajiquan here in Xi'an since about 2002.

[omarthefish]

cool. thanks omar.

where did you train dashen pigua?

I learned 2 open hand sets and a sword set from YC Wong back in the 90's. Pretty much forgot all of them.

Here's some of what I learned being performed by one of my Sihing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTuGLxjTbqA

[Eddie]

thats good. I know YC Wong learned few DSPG sets.

thanks for the info

[Hardwork108]

I don't understand what your point it here? What does any of that have to do with "internal/external"?

All I was conveying was that from my understanding of these two arts, the internal emphasis of Pigua seems to compliment the external emphasis of Baji.

I never said they do not compliment each other. I also have no problem with people combining them. My argument is that the "balance" thing is an ex-post facto explanation. The reason for the combination is that every martial artist in Cangzhou has learned at least a little of both. Youd have to make a concious decision to not combine them.

I am hypothesizing that perhaps they would not have trained both if these arts did not compliment each other, specially within a Chinese philosophical context.

As I just mentioned, I have been having this disagreement with RAF for years now. Our branch does not combine them. Zhang Xiangwu did not teach Pigua. His "brother" Lu Yunqiao, did. So this disagreement over the importance of Pigua goes back several generations now.

I would hazard a guess that both arts are potent on their own as well, and do not necessarily need each other, but it seems that there is a school of thought that thinks that their combination will give one that extra edge, to say the least.

And I am presenting my opinion based on my experience training Bajiquan here in Xi'an since about 2002.

As I mentioned before, I have no experience of Bajiquan nor of Piguazhang. My experience is limited to Mainland Chinese Wing Chun Kuen and Chow Gar Southern Mantis.

However, I do like to research and investigate other styles that interest me and it seems that others who do have experience in the arts we are discussing, would disagree with you and say that the softer and more Internal Pigua, will compliment the harder, more external, Bajiquan. Some have even gone further and said that the combination of the two is a formidable mix.

What is the truth? Who knows, perhaps one would have to ultimately train the two under masters who have combined mastery of the these styles, to know for sure.

[omarthefish]

All I was conveying was that from my understanding of these two arts, the internal emphasis of Pigua seems to compliment the external emphasis of Baji.

Yeah I got that but it's a false dichotomy. They can certainly compliment each other, sure. There's just no internal/external thing going on there. Pigua and Baji fall on exactly the same place of the internal/external scale. Even if I were to, for the sake of argument, accept the Wutan interpretation of Baji as internal....Pigua is not "more" internal. That's just silly. There is exactly zero percent more internal emphasis in Pigua compared to Baji. From my perspective, Baji is actually far closer to being an internal art than Pigua. The soft whipping and waist/spine power of Pigua are all external characteristics. Baji's trademark dantien explosion is fare more similar to Taiji power generation than anything Pigua has to offer.

I think Pigua makes a nice compliment because the training methods of Baji leave a person getting kind of tight. It's hard sometimes to really open up and have good expansiveness in the movements. Pigua can help with that. So can Baji Sabre work.

I am hypothesizing that perhaps they would not have trained both if these arts did not compliment each other, specially within a Chinese philosophical context.

Certainly. But that just means their complimentary nature was a pre-requisite, not a cause.

I would hazard a guess that both arts are potent on their own as well, and do not necessarily need each other, but it seems that there is a school of thought that thinks that their combination will give one that extra edge, to say the least.

The main school of thought comes from the fact that many Baji practitioners started in Pigua or even learned it as a family art. In our branch in Xi'an, rather than looking to another external art like Pigua for "balance", we train Taiji. The Zhang Xiangwu flavor of Baji is really a Yang Taiji/Bajiquan comibination. Many people feel that Liu's Baji was rather Bagua flavored which is quite plausible.

[SPJ]

1. there are both internal and external aspects in both pi gua and ba ji. you need both to work the best.

we would refer internal vs external as training methods as pointed out in early posts.

your standing in stillness or breathing exercises are internal training methods

-----

2. I was asked that what would be the differences in the stepping methods between pi gua and ba ji

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUWfA...eature=related

a. the first stepping in the clip is called side step or bian bu. you also circle one arm to chan first and then pi with the other arm. (pi gua stepping)

b. the last stepping is called grinding stomp or nian zhen

you turn your front soles first and then land your heels. (ba ji stepping)

pay attention to the dirts got kicked up due to grinding and stomping.

----

[Frost]

My reference to the uninformed comments of others was regarding the existance of the Internals and NOT in regards Baji or Pigua.



Don't get carried away in your delusional world of mixed martial arts. So far, and as far as I can see, the only people who have been owned in these forums were MMA-ists who come in and make clueless remarks on traditional kung fu practice, when they themselves have only trained MCdojo kungfu together with their usual bjj and tae kwon do...LOL

By the way, implyiing that Olympic weight training qualifications will help your Internal kung fu was not too smart a thing to do either, Mr Frost.

However, and as always, thanks for the laughs.

HW108

PS, (1): I hope that you do eventually find a genuine kung fu school to train in.

PS. (2): Try and contribute to the subject matter of this thread like the rest of us have done (without referring to BJJ, Tae Kwon Do and Olympic Weight training, of course...)

its ok my kung fu can be traced directly to respected masters in the hakka community, who didn't have to move to the jungle to get away from me
and my MMA/BJJ to coaches with fighters in the UFC....

Contribute like you you mean, LMAO how about trying something novel and admitting you know jack sh*t about something other than what you have read in a book and shutting up and listening to the guys on this thread who have actually trained in the arts?

[SPJ]

yes. there is still a popular belief that GM Liu incorporated bagua into baji in Taiwan.

such as rotation of the forearm/whole arm, and rotation of the waist, breathing exercise--

but as you explained better, maybe the refinement and fluidness in the movement made people speculate about bagua influence--

[SPJ]

as far as lines of ba ji

each is influenced by other styles they also practice

1. Ma family, influenced by fan zi. the moves/stances are bigger and wider.

2. wu family, pigua/baji added together, sometimes there are more pigua than baji in their routines.

3. han family, more long fist like and small hand movements

4. GM Liu line, influenced by ba gua (?)

5. Zhang-> ->Omar, influenced by tai chi (?)

----

but the basic structure/frames are the same.

maybe the flavors or emphases are a bit "different"

--

[sanjuro_ronin]

For anyone paying attention, RAF and I have been respectfully disagreeing on this subject for year. It's a friendly disagreement and he and I even met in Beijing one time for lunch. Mainly, IMO, it comes down to subtle differences in how we perceive the idea "internal" but more than that, IMHO, I think that Liu Yunqiao (RAF's branch) decided to blur the line and teach Baji as in Internal art whereas Zhang Xiangqu (my branch and Zhang was close friends with Liu btw) did not.

Where RAF takes the Adam Hsu line that "there is no internal and external, only high level and low level ability" I take a different approach. I recognize clear differences between internal and external but do not feel that an external approach is inferior. It's only inferior in theory. The theoretical limit of skill is higher with an internal approach so if you in in an external art and you fear that you may be approaching the theoretical limit of human ability in your art...then maybe your external approach is limiting. For the rest of us non-proffesional elites, the debate is not terribly relevant.

I'm in the very unusual position of having been exposed to a little of both. I only trained the "Da Sheng" version but the other one is all over the place in Xi'an. IMO, Da Sheng Pigua is more "Shaolin" and the other one is more like "Wudang" in terms of Shenfa. The horse stances are different and Da sheng power is closer to Choi Li Fut...IMHO...where northern Pigua as its name (Tong Bei Pigua) suggests spreads power out more through the back. You don't see the big diagonal leaning wit curves from foot, through the back, out to the other hand in Da Sheng Pigua.

Well said Bro, very well said.

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WkYzW67NWY

this is the baji old frame existed in the beginning of the 20 century.

a century has passed.

1. wu xiu feng incorporated pi gua and compiled 12 roads of small frame

2. huo style has early version of Li shu wen practices, including jing gang ba shi, yin shou quan (from shaolin inner corridor fist)--

3. GM Liu has late or refined version of Li shu wen practices--

4. Han hua chen passed his baji in the Chinese military

5. Ma Yin tu/Ma feng tu->nanjing guo shu guan, ma family moved to northwest along with the army--

-----

ba ji is propagating in Japan and EU in the beginning of the 21st century

---

[sanjuro_ronin]

I had a chance to watch some of the baji guys here in Toronto, good stuff.