Mantis/grappling

[sayloc]

How much grappling do the pure mantis guys teach. Not just joint locks but the throws, hold downs, arm bars, chokes and escapes. I know if you are good you will not end up on the ground but many fights do end up there.

I only spend one day a week on this during the full contact class. Most students are not interested in this kind of training. To be honest most of the throws and such come from my Judo/jujitsu background.

Just wondering how you guys do it and if this type of grappleing is taught in the more pure styles, or is it mainly just two person punch and kick drills with some joint locks.

Thanks

[shirkers1]

7* is full of throws, arm bars, joint lock etc, and is part of our every day training. Basically two man drills are taken from the empty hand forms and all of the examples above are in the forms so they should be done as much as possible.

Almost all fights unless ended by a lucky shot or some fluke will end up with someone or both going to the ground. So everyone should be ready to handle themselves when this happens. Whether it's countering the arm bar/ joint lock before it can fully be applied or biting, poking pinching once it has been applied so on and so on.

One of my students said to me when they first started to move around, "I want to do to you what I would do in a fight, or at least what I'm comfortable with right now". Being that his training was minimal at the time I guess he didn't feel he could flow with his mantis in a fight yet. So he basically tried to rush me, I had hit him 3 or 4 times in the head from different angles and took out his leg and basically was just hovering over him. He tried time and time again until I said. "Okay you go ahead and get ahold of me". He has a strong wrestling background and he got me down on the ground and tried to choke me out. I pinched him under his arm and twisted then bit his arm until he let go, then I was on the offensive. So I don't know 7* to me covers all the fighting ranges, it works and that's why I've stuck with it instead of moving on to other styles, it has everything I need.

[SevenStar]

I wouldn't rely on pinches on the ground... my personal oppinion, of course. My experience in grappling has shown me that pain compliance is not the right way to handle a ground grappling situation.

[shirkers1]

Well what do you have for me then? You can't just throw that out and not give an example of what "you" would do.

I've used it plenty of times and it's worked fine for me. I didn't say it was your only option, It's just another tool.

[German Bai Lung]

I also think pinching is no solution. If you get into a situation on the ground as you descibe it, normally in a real fighting situation the guy would easily break your neck! So if he gets you and you pinch him, he normally would not let you out but just break your neck!

In a training situation noone would really want to break your neck (I hope!) so this guy let you out!

It´s the problem of training-situations and reallife-situations! Why should there be alway a answer to any situation? If your opponent was able to kick your in the groin with full speed, well there is no answer to it!
Best is, you don´t let it happen! Same for getting in situations where the opponent could choke you out! If so: well at that point you lost!

[ninjaboy]

my sifu always advocated being skilled in all of the fighting ranges possible because hey, you never know...

he felt it very important to be comfortable in any range, be it kicking range, punching range, trapping range and of course, grappling range which can be done standing or on the ground. very early in our training he started to introduce us to the wide field of possibilities of fighting sitiuations and to help build our confidence and our ability we engaged regularly in all-range sparring sessions. he also encouraged us to enter different sport venues like sport jujitsu and various sanda-like competitions to get a broad taste of talent out there. he says mantis is mantis whether you are standing up or lying down, and besides using different neutralization skills, various chinna aplications and "dirty" fighting tricks (biting, pinching, attacks to delicate areas etc) we HK tanglangers have a cool drunken set with loads of cool ground application. personally, i agree with him and also think it is important to have skills in all areas of combat.

just my 2 cents

neil

[sayloc]

I dont think that shirkers meant that he relied on the pinch as the final end all for the battle, just one option in his arsenal.

I personally teach the things like a pinch or a hit on the back of the hand with the knuckles as a "mind lead". This sudden shock of pain takes there mind from putting pressure on your neck (only for a split second of course) to the pain. This will hopefully loosen the grip just enogh to get out of the hold or revese a hold lock on them. Just a threory and it will not work all the time. That is why we have so many different "theories".

I have not heard anyone talk much about their method of teachng grappling. From the descriptions I have read the people seems to have taken it from another system like myself. I never see any videos of people grappling. This leads me to believe that way grappling is taught in mantis may not be as effective as it could be. It sounds like most people what they think may be a throw out of a form.

I agree that mantis is mantis on the ground or standing up, but if you teach stances and a specific method to blocking and punching while standing, why not have an effective system for teaching throwing/grappling.

Teach a hip throw and the variations of that in case it is blocked. Same with leg sweeping techniques, the basic and the variations. Scarf hold the basic hold and the varieations...and so on.

Is this the next level that mantis needs to develop? Who would do it? Who would make it part of mantis?

I understand that there are 36 techniques of grappling, take downs and locks. Is this taught in a particular sequence or with any method of developing these techniques?

Have a good day

[shirkers1]

Thanks sayloc you're right. I didn't say it was my be all end all just a "tool" in an arsenal. I know I'm not the strongest wrestler out there. I can hold my own on the ground, I have good sensitivity, etc but I know I would rather stick and move with someone whose better at wrestling than me. But it's happened where you slip or the guy gets in on you by suprise and you end up on the ground. You can't always counter and that's where "street" tactics come in to play. When you get in those positions those shocking tactics usually help give you that split second to slip or reverse the tactic on him.

Lately we've been training a lot of throws and arm locks. Many different variations. So they're there in the empty hand sets just pull them out and make a 2 man drill for them. The problem (which is where I think the guys from the mainland are seeing but come across to harsh when saying it) is that some students of mantis really don't know what they are doing when they perform the sets. So they don't realize how they can pull these tactics and drills from the sets.

I'm not singling any one out here so don't get crazy on me I'm just saying some of the people I've personally seen can't do this.

[German Bai Lung]

Sayloc and shirkers1: I understand what you´re saying and you´re right. It´s good to be familiar with all distances and all situations you could be involved. And also to involve your opponent in it!

But what I´m trying to say: if you ever get in a serious "neckhold" (uhoh, now I realize I don´t know the english words for wrestling terms!) there will be no "release". You get your neck broken. Thats it. So if you are pinching or kick against his skin: that will not change your broken neck!

For Example: Dan Bin Cheui or single whip punch. You find this move very often and its mostly applied as reward slap through the face. But you can also use it as catching the opponents neck and then immediatly throwing him over your hip. It will always brake his neck also! No matter if he is pinching me or not! He is done ....

[shirkers1]

Bai

In that situation you are correct a pinch will not work. Where that would be effective is say you have somehow gotten yourself in the position of someone trying to choke you out via head lock. You're both on the ground. Now usually someone isn't trying to kill you in a street fight. But the average person for some reason feels they have to get a hold of you and get you in a head lock to try and punch you in the face. Here is where your "dirty street tactics come into play to get him to release you. Why try to fight strength with strength? You need to get out of that position asap before you get choked out or knocked out.

I see your point.

[MightyB]

You're not going to find what I think that you're looking for in Mantis with the groundfighting.

If you're looking for the guard, ground sweeps, knee on belly, hold downs, reversals, cranks, locks, passes, etc. that are common to MMA and groundfighting... they're not in Mantis. I'm not quite sure what people have described here is that, because really to find that style of fighting, you have to look at Judo and the styles that have been derived from Judo like Sambo and BJJ to get that stuff.

There is an interesting book from YMAA called Chin Na for Groundfighting that's worth a look. It's by Al Arsenault. I like this one because it's written by a groundfighter who's converted to CMA. Most of the stuff on Chin Na for the ground or using TCMA to fight groundfighters was written by people who had no real experience fighting ground fighters, so mostly the stuff that's available is bunk.

I strongly advise people to try some friendly Randori with experienced grapplers in their environment. It's an eye opener.

[German Bai Lung]

Mighty B: I see your points and I think its really interesting no matter what kind of Art you are practising or which style you friendly spar with.

But for the fight with Grapplers: it´s always the same argumentation, what to do if he grapples you. Well, let him not grap you! That sounds ignorant, but let me try to explain!

When you get in a real fight you will use your taughest weapons of mantis, right? So you will kick him in the groin or blind him with you fingers or ... okay you get it. But this will not work if you do some friendly sparring. So, MMA compared to TCMA is not working at all, IMHO.

That must not mean, that its not good to train sometimes with this folks and to gain some competitions with their rules, just to see what will work! But then we are not playing our game!

[shirkers1]

Mighty B Wow you don't have these tactics you describe in your mantis? They are all over the place. Basic grappling, trapping, arm bars, etc knowledge is used in a ground situation just as much in a toe to toe stand up situation.

A lot of the throws are designed to have the other person crash to the ground landing in awkward positions. But there are many that allow you to take the guy to the ground via locks, arm bars, etc.

So you are telling me that you just stop there? I mean you just applied an arm bar right? You took him to the ground okay fights over get up, dust off and walk away? <--by the way I was being sarcastic there. You don't stop at joint locks take down or whatever you finish up with following tactics.

Now it may not be brazilian jujitsu, but basic principals are there if you know how to find them.

[shirkers1]

Bai I agree with you 100%

The point is to play your game and use your strengths and exploit his weakness. That's a major part of mantis thinking. You need to know how to handle those certain situations on the ground because you will end up there sometime. Mantis has those tactics and you should be training them.

Wow an actual thread on mantis tactics, this is fun.

[MightyB]

Using a lock to hold somebody down after a throw isn't groundfighting. Shrikers, I'm not sure were on the same page. Throwing, locking, breaking, yada yada yada is taught extremely well from the standing position. Also, following a throw with a lock that holds somebody on the ground is also shown, but the MMA stuff like being pinned down isn't.

I've never seen the guard taught in mantis or the myriad of techniques that are associated with it. Nor have I seen anything that deals with escaping from the bad side of the mount.

Everything Mantis deals with not going to the ground in a wrestling type of fight which is a good tactic, but I don't think that's what Sayloc was asking about.