Mantis/grappling

[MightyB]

So did we answer your question?

[mantis108]

Hi Puja,

I made a long reply and it got erased. [Freak'n GD laptop!]

Sorry, about that I will try to get back to you on that.

Hi Matt,

I have a clip of my student (the one in the storefight clip) doing the one form that I wasn't sure if it was GM Chiu's material. The way the form is designed is unmistakenly CCK TCPM just that it wasn't in the HK curriculum. Anyway, it is taken with sony digital camera. Because of the venue (a Karate open tournament), the angle of filming is not great but you should be able to see it. I send that file to Jochen before too. I will email over right away.

Warm regards

Robert

PS pressure point is used in mantis as well.

[sayloc]

Thanks for the rep!ies!

Yes you did answer my questions.

I would have to say that there is Grappling (throws hold downs and the such) in Mantis. I can pull it from the forms like many of you here have described.

I do have to say that there does not seem to be a systemized way of teaching throwing and grappling techniques in mantis.

Tainans system does sound close to what i am talking about. Did that come from the mantis or did he develp it?

I think that there is to much to learn about body mechanics for throwing and grappling than you can get by just pulling it out of a form.

I teach grappling the way I learned it in Judo. Very systemized and effeective.

I My first instructor taught a well rounded curriculum of the punch and kick stuff with the grappling. His theory was that you should be able to figure out your opponents preferred fighting style very fast. Then you should fight him in a way he is not comportable with. Dont know if that makes sense. I know, I know most fights should only last for 1 second. take it for what it is worth.

Thanks guys.

[mantis108]

As far as I know, Tainan Mantis (Kevin) doesn't do ground fighting with his mantis stuff. He could have done some ground grappling before too but there is no mixing or rather extanding of styles.

I on the other hand does it. The breakfall rountine that he showed me could have came from Judo if I am not mistaken. I recommend it because it is systematic and easy for others to relate to Judo training.

GM Chiu (CCK TCPM) in HK used to teach a different routine for breakfalling. It is preserved in his manuscript. There are certain details that aren't the same as Judo. It is in my view that Judo's breakfalling is better suit for ground fighting because it brings you into position naturally without compromising the structure too much.

Just to make things clearer.

Mantis108

[mantis108]

There are a few basic positions in say BJJ.

1. Guard (you are on your back and your opponent is between your legs/thighs but doesn’t control your hip)

2. Cross side or side control (you are on top of your opponent and you are facing down across his body using your weight to pin him (on his back) to the floor)

3. Mount (you are on top sitting near his hips)

4. Top rear mount (you have his back while he is on all four or on his stomach)

Hierarchy of positions means to understand which one is the worst situation and which one is the best position. From the list above and in the same order, the guard is the worst or inferior while the top rear mount is the best or superior. Having said that a skilled ground fighter could use the guard to his advantage and it could be very powerful as well. There are plenty more positions but that will come with experience. This awareness can be drilled.

Positions might sound foreign to Mantis but think of these as gates, doors or walls. If you are in someone’s guard that means you are right between his inside gates. This is easy to see the advantage that you have and the danger that he is having. He is literally offering it to you. If you decide to fight there and then, it is basically the ground and pound that most strikers in MMA events do. As long as you have a base and balance is secured, you may continue to do so as you pleased. A ground fighter, however, would attempt to pass the guard into say a cross side position. This is the improving of the position and so on so forth. Once a favorable position is acquired say mount then it is the focus to hold the position not getting sweep back to a less favorable position. Further attack can be introduced at this point.

Meanwhile Zhan Nian Bang Tie, Lai Jiao Shun Song, and Ti Na Feng Bi of Mantis can all be used. BTW, Gao Lu Cai go under Feng (actually feng and bi are very handy in a ground fighting situation). In fact, you could see Zhan Zhuan Teng Nuo in the way an advanced grappling in passing the guard or while improving positions. Of course, the terminology don't exist in BJJ. Anyway, it is fancier and would not be used frequently during NHB events. These principles combined with the 8 shorts would become the most valuable assets that mantis bring to the mat. Of course, understanding the roles of hips, elbows, knees, chin, etc and how to capitalize them with leverage on the ground is a mantis stylist’s top priority when it comes to ground fighting. That will drastically improve the ground game. I hope that gradually people would understand that having a ground game in mantis is not far fatch and it needs not to further borrow concepts or principles from other arts (drills or techniques perhaps). The ground fighting training regime can also be incorporated into the regular mantis program without much modifications.

Hope this helps

Warm regards

Robert

[Oso]

Robert, thanks for the clip. need more time to look at it.

to sum up, would you say that mantis does not inherantly have a codified method of ground grappling but that you could examine the existing methodology for things to adapt?

[mantis108]

to sum up, would you say that mantis does not inherantly have a codified method of ground grappling but that you could examine the existing methodology for things to adapt?

Excellently put. IMHO it would not be hard to come up with a ground oriented Mantis style/system if someone chooses to do it.

Warm regards

Robert

PS you are most welcome for the clip. Hope you'd enjoy it.

[puja]

Thanks for the very detailed explanation. Now I know what you meant by positions =) We met some grapplers on our last seminar, who were training at the same place. It was really interesting to see that it's not that far away from the principles and methodology we have in mantis. I think you're right, that it wouldn't be hard to adapt mantis to ground fighting with the existing

btw, could you perhaps send me that clip of the form, too? You should have my email from before I think.

Puja

[mantis7]

Hello All

Mantis or most gng fu systems do not have grappling in their orientations. When I say grappiling I am refering to the NHB movment, Bjj, American catch-as catch can wrestling, Grecco Roman. The closest thing I have seen to wrestling is Mogolian influenced as in shua jiao (sp?), Ditang ground boxing, chin na's throwing techniques and what we see in sanda now a days.

This is not to say that That these arts can not be modified to increase the ability of getting into the mounted range but in and of its self it is not the modern or better yet the current morph of reality nhb.

Ditang is alot of low ground tumbling, legs strkies, trips, sweeps and other little nasty goodies but you will not see any actual arms bars, rear naked chokes or so forth.

The Shuai Jiao people you will see throws strikes and all that nastiness. You will also see that weird needle type weapon used to finish off a downed opponent but you will not see any submission holds on the ground.

Chin na you will see the standing submissions, control holds, seazing the breathe technique and what have you but you will not see them go to the ground for a finisher.

The reason for this is based in the origins or influnetial components of any give martial art. Kung fu was created in order to defend but it was also developed along the lines of battle field combat. The idea of mass combatants on a field of war is to stay on your feet while defeating, staying alive, as many opponents as possible. If you went to the ground you would be stabed with a spear, a sword or trampled by horse. The indivdual field farmer would use gung fu to ward off mercs, thugs who often attacked en mass. Going to the ground was not an option.

Now ground grappling like the Native American, Greco-Roman and so on was developed to test ones mettle on a one to one basis.
There was no fear of being attacked while you were on your back. The matches often usually ended after you were thrown to the ground so even here you saw very little submission holds. I am also inclined to believe that the submissions used today were originally used to be breaks and not submissions. The person was taken down and their lines were destroyed and the one who applied this move would get up and move on.

I am not sure when the breaks actually became submission but I am sure it was influenced by competition and not by necessity.
In a real fight you do not want to submitt your opponent but to cripple them.

If your mantis cirriculum, mantis that is , contains the 72 throws, I think this is correct, and posses Chin na as well as Dit tang then you can go through a systematic manner in developing a well rounded ground fighting, with submission, grappling system with in mantis.

I would suggest, instead of that, is to study the Bjj system and learn the transitional movments of going from the standing/striking position to the ground mounted system. Then take that material and apply it to the already exsisting mantis locks, throws and what have you. Just because it exsist outside the system does not mean that it can not be adapted to a mantis system thus not changing Mnatis's true nature.

This is all a personal view but I think a fighter should be more worried about furthering their own complete all around skill and not worry to much about changing the system. IF the system is lacking something and posses a weak area improving it will only improve the system overall..

Cheers
Victor

[puja]

Originally posted by mantis7
Chin na you will see the standing submissions, control holds, seazing the breathe technique and what have you but you will not see them go to the ground for a finisher.

Sorry, but I have to correct you on that. I got this nice book of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming from YMAA which is called "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" from a friend and this Dr. Yang quite often finishes the move on the ground.
Btw, I haven't seen many books on this topic as good as this one. There's also a VCD available which I hope to get soon. I would recommend it to all who are interested in these kind of techniques.

Best regards,

Puja

[mantis7]

That is an excellent book! If I am not mistaken he does not finish many of his grounded opponents with thelikes of an arm bar or things of that nature. I could be wrong on this though.

Cheers
Victor

[puja]

Ya, you're right most of the finishing moves are some kind of armbars or sometimes throws.

[ninjaboy]

does mantis have groundfighting in their forms? great question. i look at it like this:

i hear many people say that techniques in forms are for a very specific purpose. i completely disagree. i think there is entirely too much reliance on the idea of 2-man sets to demonstrate the applications to the student. it's too easy and simplified to say to a student "this move is for this, and this move is for that"...i can think of multiple practical applications for every move in every form i know. it just depends on how you look at it. i place great weight on what i call "generic movement analysis". this is the idea that any move can be looked at in a variety of different ways depending on how you insert the opponent. for example, how does the application of a single move change depending on how the opponent is moving, attacking, defending, etcetera...?

having said that, when analysing moves in a form and whether they are applicable on the ground or not, i think it's important to change the context to an appropriate parallel. let's take oso's question:

" Shirkers1, can you describe for me a specific mantis technique to follow and control a downed opponent while rendering him incapable of doing further harm to you?"

my sifu calls it a "crouching" stance and many others refer to it as a "circle entering" stance but, regardless of what you call it, the effect is the same. i can't think of a form i know that doesn't have this position and i feel the posture itself can be viewed in a number of ways. it is highly mobile and allows you to move from a more upright stance to this one whereby the the femur of the rear leg approaches a more vertical nature fairly close to the ground. in a groundfighting application i would use this stance as i follow the opponent to the ground to control the opponent by pressing on them with the rear knee, either as a strike when i come in to range or as a pinning movement to prevent the use of whatever it was that i was pinning, maybe the arm, maybe the leg, whatever, or, both striking and pinning...from there, the close range neutralizing, trapping and striking abilities in our system, coupled with any chinna experience you may have should be able to keep you safe until you decide to retreat, escape or to do further damage.

that's one example. i have other examples too if anyone's interested. also, please let me know if have been unclear in any way. just my thoughts.....

be good

neil

[shirkers1]

Ninja boy

my thoughts exactly and it's what I was saying but my point wasn't getting across but I think you see in your head what I'm seeing. It's mantis theory and tactics on the ground, it's not going to be a brazilian jujitsu mount or whatever it's going to be mantis tactics plugged into the equation. Just because it's not a brazilian tactic doesn't mean that you aren't ground fighting.

[SevenStar]

that's exaclty it though, it's theory for most people. How many of the guys here actually apply them on the ground? and for those that do, how often do you do so against grapplers? When I was in longfist, we did some grappling - basics and such, but we were working on it ourselves, based off what we had seen and also trying to make standing techniques work on the ground. When I started bjj, it showed me that even our ground basics sucked. IMO, it's more efficient to just train a grappling style with mantis, or at least do some training with a grappler from time to time, so you can get some ground experience against someone familiar with the element.

I wouldn't look at apply bjj techniques to striking, nor would I try to apply the ground locks standing up - there is a set of standing locks we learn, and for striking, I would look to a different style. Why then, must everything from a cma be forced to stay within the confines of that cma? It doesn't make much sense to me.