Mantis/grappling

[Frogman]

One of my personal favorites is knocking your opponent to the ground while you still control the arm with a wrist lock and just step on their head. Then I would say something like, “Not going anywhere for a while, grab a snickers bar!”

Ya, I have wasted an hour already… back to work.

RibHit
fm

[MightyB]

Oso, Sevenstar, I'm taking you both WWE style! MightyB 155lbs soaking wet vs you two.

Trying to pre-empt the multi-opponents fallacy! I know you two wouldn't want to fight me!

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by sayloc
I dont think that shirkers meant that he relied on the pinch as the final end all for the battle, just one option in his arsenal.

I personally teach the things like a pinch or a hit on the back of the hand with the knuckles as a "mind lead". This sudden shock of pain takes there mind from putting pressure on your neck (only for a split second of course) to the pain. This will hopefully loosen the grip just enogh to get out of the hold or revese a hold lock on them. Just a threory and it will not work all the time. That is why we have so many different "theories".

It can also have the revers effect. my friend had someone in an armbar and the person bit him. the bite made him arch his hips more, which actually tightened the arm bar. I do understand what you are saying though, some wrestlers will attempt to use such techniques as distractions as they set up something.

[SevenStar]

sign it. oso and seven vs mighty b in a lumberjack match!

[Oso]

Well depending on the situation of coarse it would be different. But let's say for example the White ape arm bar take down. You've tagged, now lean. "12 character principles" If you feel the need to "mount" he's already face down and you're controlling him via lock, continue in pressing on the back of his neck or head forcing his face into the ground while applying the body pressing mount. I personally don't want to wrestle so I would strike with elbows etc and get out.

gotcha, i think. but...your follow after the takedown is not specifically in the form is it? Tag and Lean are basically from the standing position to initiate the takedown and that's all good but from that point you have stepped out of direct application of the form. Not bad, imo. But, is it mantis?

I'll stop here and say that what I would truly love to find IS some bona fide theory/technique for mantis ground fighting so don't think I'm tearing mantis down...I love the little bug.

Also, how are you going to effectively strike a downed opponent with elbows if you are NOT mounted? Even a kneeling posture is going to be rather high for striking a downed opponent. My upper arms are only a bit over a foot long.

It's not going to look like modern maa tactics, but just because it's not MAA groundfighting doesn't mean it's not groundfighting. You have to adapt mantis tactics to what you are trying to accomplish.

granted, again I'm looking for valid mantis groundfighting.

I know you're a big guy oso, I wouldn't want to wrestle with you that doesn't mean that I'm ignorant at what to do when you get a hold of me either. Believe me all I do is mantis and I try not to bring to much outside influence into my training and I haven't had a problem yet. Mantis is a well rounded art and can stand on it's own if taught right.

well, size does matter which is why there are weight classes in most events w/ grappling...and boxing for that matter. but, even two people of different sizes can randori and the big guy doesn't always win...

It's hard to explain yourself in words sometimes. It's easier just to do it.

that's why video is good for this type of discussion. I have a set from my old teacher taught to me as monkey. It was supposed to mantis but research hasn't validated that. However, it did have ground work and specifically a series of movements that ended in a mount after you knee barred him as a takedown.

clips of that form are here:

http://www.ashevillemartialarts.com/ninjassuck.htm

be kind, I hadn't played that set in a while when I filmed it. I did it much better when I was 25.

[Oso]

i dunno, little guys who are good tend to **** me off...they can be hard as hell to hang on to...but as long as I get to be Black Jack Mulligan I'm in.


a thought on 'pinching': when I do it, it's not a two finger pinch but a grab of the skin with the entire hand and a circular twisting/tearing motion. the best places for this are the inside of the thigh, the side of the torso and the side of the neck. this is just another distraction/fake/set up sort of tool and as already stated isn't always going to work.

[MightyB]

Oso,

I have a Mac. What Codec are you using? I'm having problems viewing the clips, all I have is a bunch of code on a page when I hit your links.

[mantis108]

I am only speaking from my own experience and doesn't represent and other's view but my very own.

Mantis does have grappling and ground fighting. In TJPM (Jiang Hualong and Song Zide's lineage), there is 7th Zhaiyao that is said to be ground fighting oriented. I haven't seen it yet so I don't know how it works.

In CCK TCPM, we have 2 forms Wu Shou Chui (5 hand punch) and Ditanglang (ground mantis). Actually there is one more but I can't be sure of the origin. It was not within GM Chiu's HK curriculum so I won't say it is from him. The other 2 forms mentioned were from his material for sure.

Mantis primarily is a striking style at least in classical concept. Through out the years it has expand into many things. Now it is certain that Mantis is about the 4 attacks - Da, Ti, Na, and Shuai.

I think taking someone down and hold/pin him doesn't mean it is ground fighting by default. It is no more or no less than many striker doing the ground and pound thing in MMA events. Ground fighting is an art unto itself. But Mantis and Ground fighting CAN go hand in hand. It is possible to make grappling (that of BJJ) as an extension of your mantis skill. Having said that, this is strictly personal opinion based on working with CCK TCPM and some grappling experience through the help of friends.

As far as training method for mantis to become ground effective, there are few things to bear in mind.

1) full under standing of monkey footwork instead of the rock solid stances. There are plenty of drills to do that.

2) Breakfalling, rolling, throws and takedowns. Good understanding of this will shorten the time to achieve submission hold.

3) Understand positional play. Hiarchey of positions, improve/controllin/releasing of positions, attack from the positions. These things must be fully understood. These also do not contradict the 12 keywords (the Greater Meihwa lineages).

4) focus on drill based training program rather form based program.

These are just a few things to share for now. If there is an interest, I will share more thoughts with you all. BTW, we have threads about mantis and grappling before. I could repost that as well.

Mantis108

[puja]

3) Understand positional play. Hiarchey of positions, improve/controllin/releasing of positions, attack from the positions. These things must be fully understood. These also do not contradict the 12 keywords (the Greater Meihwa lineages).

Hi Robert,
could you perhaps go into this point in detail. I'm not sure if I really understand what you mean by "positions"
Thanks for the input.

Best regards,

Puja

[Frogman]

What about pressure points, how often are they applied in mantis? I have been exposed to a little bit and like how by just pushing my fingers into a certain spots I get my opponents attention very quickly.

RibHit
fm

[MightyB]

Pressure Points? Depends on your Sifu. Can be a lot, can be a little.

[Oso]

sorry, they are .wmv files. At the time that's all I could do to get a reasonable file size at the time. I've got Pinnacle studio 8 now so I think I can redo them as anything else but .mov

can you see .avi ??

I'll have to do it this weekend and then get my webmistress (hehe) to upload sometime.

or I could email if you can handle a larger file.

[puja]

Oso,
you could get the best compatibility with MPEG 1 (VCD) or 2 (DVD). Nearly every system should be able to show that. Also you are able to keep file size at a modarate level with adequate quality.

Puja

[Oso]

puja, yea, I can do that now with Pinnacle but I made those .wmv files with my cameras bundled software a while ago.



Robert, any video of those forms or drills from them?

[mantis108]

At the time, I wrote this my thoughts weren't too clear. I must also stress that Mantis theory and pricinple don't contradition ground grappling. It doesn't need to further borrow concepts IMHO. So I will add some more comments. The bold parts are the original post.

To effectively learn the ground game there are a few things to look at:

1) Break fall

This is most basic skill in learning takedown. Tainan Mantis (Kevin) showed me his routine for this which I think is every effective in training the break fall. The next step on the break fall is the ground mobility drills, which are to deal with the three ground positions.

Guard position - Leg raise
Side control - shrimping
mount - bridging

All these can be included in the break full training as warm ups.

There are solo and partnered drills that are important to learn crucial techniques in ground fighting. For example, bear crawl partner drill (for the top game player) is to learn the double underhooks, sticking tight to the opponent, and try not to get head butt during the process, and most of all don't fall off. It is also a good conditioning drill for ground grappling function strength and endurance. We can also modify the drill into a buttertub roll drill so that the top game player (the one taking the back) isn't going to be easily crushed if the bottom guy uses rolling as a counter. BTW, rolling is very important ground skill which credit has not been dued.

2) Throws and takedown

Quan (fighting form) such as the Dei Tanglang has plenty of these. Jia (conditioning form) such as the 18 Lohan Gung can train the mechanics of throws and takedowns really well. All are excellent to enhance these aspects of fighting.

We should also learn takedown from the three ground positions as the reversal. Once you are being thrown or taken down, how do you quickly turn the disadvantage around? So we must learn that.

I should have said sweeps instead. From the ground positions, you literally are sweeping. As I have said before, throws and takedown combining with good breakfall and rolling skill will shorten the time to achieve submission holds; thus, giving the "kung fu feel".

3) Grappling Techniques

Mantis has plenty of this offered as stand up grappling. It is important to note that some awkward stand up techniques might very well be sound concepts or principles on the ground. So study them carefully so that you can translate them into ground game. Also gravity goes hand in hand with the ground. If you can make use of this, you will come out on top (pun intended) of your ground game.

Chin Na, which consists of both stand up and ground grappling, isn't just about submission holds, chokes and knock out strikes. Many think of it in term of an end. Chin Na similar to throws and takedown is about flow. It has to be fluid. That's why ground grappling insisted on working the positions to understand the flow before adding in the finishing moves. Today, many people train Chin Na in terms of technique (finishing hold). That's why it became less and less effective against seasoned figthers especially grappler. When you understand the positional play, the finishing moves are everywhere. There certain important techniques that are very useful like the double underhooks, eblow to the mat (braced position), etc... Those need to be drilled to become second nature while on the ground.

4) Escape

This is most obvious for a striking style such as mantis. We don't really wanted to be there in the first place. Most people look to techniques on this one. If you rely on techniques to get you out you are too slow. It helps but an experienced grappler knows that quick reflects and response time is more crucial to the great escape. So drill takedown and get up as often and as quickly as you can.

Actually, escape is a bit reactive. It is more proactive to think in terms of offence even in a compromised situation. An offensive guard game is more valueable than holding a regular mount IMHO. By thinking escape you would be prolonging the fight and encourage the opponent to take you to the ground or whatever. So think in terms of improving your position not escape.

5) Finishing moves

This was brought up from the above posts. We have to understand that at the ground range there are only so many ways a body can move because of the present of the ground. So in a way there are not so many choices of style specific techniques as finishing hold. Personally I wouldn't worry about "looking" like mantis finishing hold here. But work more so towards approaching the hold through the principles and concepts of Mantis. Hope I make sense here.

I could provide a drill if anyone is interested

One move wonder in Kung Fu is not a bad thing. Personally, I would focus on 3 moves and make sure they transit well. So that submission is imminant.

6) Avoiding going to the ground with a grappler.

Personally, I don't find this mentality healthy because that means not facing a potential problem. I think a better approach is to understand balance through good stances and foundations even on the ground. Good balance, mobility and breathing should allow you to survive standing up or on the ground. Do not let fear to persuade you otherwise. Fear stems from the unknown. If you learn it you will take away the unknown; hence, no fear.

Personally, you can't think in terms of countering a grappler that means you are afraid of his skill. You have to be proactive at all times. This is the tough part. How to incite fear into a grappler? Now that's the question.

7) Climate training

Learn, practice and drill and Learn, practice and drill. Develop drills from the forms and practice them over and over again with live partners. Not just doing the forms. That will translate into Kung Fu. I think we all are familiar with and understand this well. So I won't be long winded about this.

Mat time is drill time. That's the same with Shuai jiao, wrestling, Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, etc... If Mantis Kung Fu wants to beat those, well.... mat time is key.

Mantis108