Athlete or Artist?

[martialdoulos]

How many martial artists view themselves as practicing an athletic activity? How many should?

I have found that, quite often, martial artists of all flavors tend to consider themselves as doing an activity that is wholly different from other athletic events. Consequently, they do not train as though they were athletes. I think this is a serious shortcoming in the general approach that many people in the arts take.

Incidentally, By athletic, I mean engaging in supplemental training that will develop the particular muscular and coordinational qualities that are necessary to enhance one's performance in one's art. This would include cardiovascular conditioning (running, biking, jump rope, shadow boxing for rounds, etc, etc), anaerobic conditioning (weights, isometrics), calisthenics (combo anaerobic and endurance), etc.

Now, there are many, many reasons that I hear for why we (martial artists) don't have to train in supplemental, athletic ways.

The "masters" of old are often cited. There are many martial arts legends of the past who had fantastic prowess (and were held to be undisputably dominant in combat) and who did NOT train in ways that could be considered "athletic." They were purely winning with great technique, internal power, or a combination of both, etc. HOWEVER, finding actual, hard and fast documentation (ie - video tape, etc) of these gentlemen is next to impossible -- such accounts are related in terms of anecdotes. They are "legends" in most respects. Such legends probably have substance, but we must still admitt that they are in fact legends.

Also, the martial artist's usage of "internal power" (ki, chi) is often cited as one of the main reasons that we need not engage in these "external" training methods. Again though, we have little solid examples of this sort of training enabling a person to engage with, and overcome, similar martial artists who train in more athletic manners.

Rather, I will maintain that it is simple to observe that all fighters, from almost all arenas of competition, innevitably end up HAVING to train athletically if they progress far enough in competition.

In reality, consider this: soldiers in the military HAVE to train supplementally, to be combat ready. This has been consistent throughout recorded history. Organized armies were kept in good condition -- it is so fundamental as to be assumed.

Consider as well: all physical endeavors/events/sports/whatever utilize "training" in these ways -- everything from soccer to ice skating to football to ballet. Anything involving complex physical movement in any arena necessitates training athletically -- IF one wants to maximize his potential.

Now, what makes martial arts so special that we do NOT necessarily need to train athletically? I think that we like to envision that we are "above" these lesser, physical events. However, our arts utilize the bodies we were given at birth -- just like all other physical activities.

I am espousing taking the "hard" road here -- more training. I know that this is not popular. There are not many people out there who like pushups. Do them. Lots of them. Not only that, go running, go lifting -- learn about how these activities should work together. If you don't you cannot possibly hope to maximize. Go with the proof. The proof will tell you that you can do MORE by adding conditioning to your training regimen than you can without it. Internal alone wont' get you there -- if it could, then that's what would be winning the olympic medals, the boxing titles, etc. View yourself as an athlete and an artist, rather than an artist alone.

I recommend the following website for great information:
http://www.myodynamics.com

"Correct is simple, but simple is not easy

[dzu]

You make some good points, but everyone trains for different reasons. One key word that you use frequently in your post is 'competition' and 'athletic'. I agree that if you are using your WC to compete against professional fighters, you need to train like a professional fighter. However, even fighters devote the majority of their time training the actual skills.

Regarding the 'old masters', many of these people existed before the invention of the video camera so of course there won't be video footage. There is word of mouth and newspaper articles, but that is why I seek to experience things for myself. However, many of the matches in the past were not necessarily 5 round events with a referee and with $$ on the line. There was no cat and mouse game inside of the ring or on the mat. Either someone tried to kill you or they didn't and it was over pretty quickly.

Internal power takes a while to develop, but it lasts with you forever once understood. Physical prowess dimineshes with age and peaks more quickly. I would guess that those that compete want more immediate results and turn to those systems that are geared for competition such as boxing, kick boxing, wrestling, etc. These arts are much more focused in one particular set of skills that are geared for the rules of the competition.

Obviously, given equal skill and accounting for luck, the stronger, better fit fighter will win. Unfortunately, I only have so much time in the day to devote to this part of my life. I drive up to Los Angeles from San Diego every other week to train with my Sifu (sometimes every week). I try to train as regularly as I can on my own and with my fellow kung fu brothers that drive up with me. During class, I would rather spend valuable time working on WC rather than pushups, situps, jumping rope, etc. These I do in my spare time.

I try to train as frequently as I can. I do other things to keep me in shape, but I take WC seriously and have WC on my mind constantly when at work or with my friends. I try to work out with people from other arts or lineages whenever I can to gain experience and apply what I have learned. Physical attributes are important but not everyone can devote endless hours training skills followed by physical conditioning and dieting. Most people train for a variety of reasons and training time often competes with family time, work, sleep, and other recreational activities.

regards,

Dzu

[chessGMwannabe]

I have to agree that you need to have a strong fit body to do wing chun, could you imagine what it would be like for a cripple to fight? there's no way you could do it. I think most people's bodies are really 'half cripple.'

But I also think that excessive training can hinder your growth in wing chun (don't take me too seriously though, I've only been doing it for two years ;) ). I like to play with my nunchakus to work out my arms and stuff, but I've also noticed that when my arms are tense and 'bulging' with muscles my chain punching slows way down and my body overall learns stuff slower.

So there really is a good question; What would be the ideal amount of muscular training and such to maximize your Kung Fu developement?

I'm not too concerned with how many people I can beat up, but I'd like to know how to increase my body's ability to perform kung fu to it's best potential.

just a thought.

[El_CLap]

I don't consider myself an athlete at all. I never work out. I hate to run. I hate getting up to walk to the fridge. I don't really consider myself much of a martial artist either. I train in Wing Chun, a bit of jujitsu and recently a bit of JKD, but I am caring less and less about the whole art of it and more about just being able to fight well. I don't know that we are artists as artists create something and we are just learning forumulas. Kind of like math I guess. There are only so many situations and angles and ranges and you just have to be able to deal with them. There are forumlas and techniques to deal with them. Is it art? Some people make it look like art.

[chi-kwai]

>>>"I have to agree that you need to have a strong fit body to do wing chun, could you imagine what it would be like for a cripple to fight? there's no way you could do it. I think most people's bodies are really 'half cripple.'"<<<

we had a blind girl in our wing chun school that seemed to get along fairly well.

--
chi kwai

[kungfu cowboy]

While not arguing against being in shape, which is a good thing that provides many health benefits, correctly applied wing chun requires little muscle to be effective.

Barry Manilow ain't no vegetable.

[BeiKongHui]

I think we are artists when we take the elements and lessons of the system and begin to "create" our own ways of using them. We are atheletes when we train to enhance our physical strength or speed or even when we Chi Sao or spar.
I also agree with what KFCowboy said and a person who trains this way is more of an artist to me than an athlete. While I know of others who definetly train WC in a very athletic fashion because they wish to take there skills to a higher level.
To me it's all about what you want out of your Wing Chun there is no wrong way to train it as long as you work steadily towards your personal goal.

"To the extreme!"
--Poochie

[chessGMwannabe]

that was pretty insensative of me. I'm not against the idea that a person with disabilities couldn't become familiar with their weaknesses and over come them, we all have weaknesses. I don't htink that you need to be able to do onehundred handstand pushups either. but I still hold that to do your wing chun properly, you can't be running out of breath after the first two punches are thrown. especially if you are against a grappler. I don't think that grappling is a silver bullet against wing chun, but once you hit the mat your energy seems to drain three times as fast.

something else I have to say.
"I don't know that we are artists as artists create something and we are just learning forumulas."
how many artists create something? painters can't make new colors. I don't think that art has to be creative, but this is just my interp of the word. I think that art is the overlapping of separate truths, or principles as we would think of them in kung fu. There is no "Wing Chun defense #12 against snap kick to the mid waist by a 138 pound bluebelt in shotokan karate" you'll never see two fights that are teh same if both are skilled wing chun practicioners.

[chi-kwai]

>>> how many artists create something? painters can't make new colors. I don't think that art has to be creative, but this is just my interp of the word. I think that art is the overlapping of separate truths, or principles as we would think of them in kung fu. <<<

I agree and would like to add something of my own. Art, in my opinion, is the refined result of ones actions. Art is anything that invokes an emotional response, positive or negative. Art is not substantial but must be something that can be recognized, even if its not understood.

Martial arts is analagous to music. You can be amazingly talented at playing the guitar, but unless you have feeling, you are doing nothing more than going through the motions. With martial arts it is the same. I consider a good musician an artist in the same way I consider a good fighter an artist: both results are gossimer if observed passively, but both music and martial arts can affect you directly, the difference is, one can make you bleed. :D

--
chi kwai

[El_CLap]

Ah yes. There are no defined set techniques against other techniques but there are defined set principles. That is the style you study. You should spend much of your class time perfecting your techniques, your tan sao, your bong sao, and what not. You do your form. You use set techniques. What is not the same is the strategy you use to defeat your opponent. I would say we are more strategists than artists. Strategy requires logic. Art can be anything and it doesn't have to win or lose. What's art to someone is junk to someone else. The painting of a soup can? There are no interpretations of Wing Chun. It either works or not.

[GeneChing]

I didn't know where to post this. I thought about making a new thread titled Wing Chun Musicians but I doubt that would gain much traction. This here thread popped up when I searched 'musician' so here it goes. It was just too odd to pass up plus the ol' WC subforum needs so much attention nowadays... how times have changed.

‘Bruce Lee’ of the accordion coming to Acadiana Roots
Herman Fuselier, Lafayette Daily Advertiser Published 8:00 a.m. CT Nov. 5, 2018 | Updated 10:07 a.m. CT Nov. 6, 2018
Corey Ledet shows off skills with ‘Accordion Dragon’ CD


(Photo: Travis Gauthier)

Corey Ledet isn’t bragging when he calls himself the “Accordion Dragon,” a title he shares with his new CD. This young accordion master, who’s been an instructor in the Traditional Music Program at UL Lafayette, is simply stating a fact.

An internationally touring zydeco musician at the age of 21 and a Grammy nominee at 30, Ledet grew up in Houston, fascinated by martial arts movies and Asian culture. Two years ago, Ledet started training in Wing Chun, Chinese Kung fu that teaches combat in close quarters.

Wing Chun also instills mastery of the senses, relaxation and a strong spiritual center. For 25 years, Ledet has applied those skills to his instrument, making him worthy of a title inspired by his hero, the late martial artist, actor and philosopher Bruce Lee.

“They called Bruce Lee the dragon,” said Ledet, 36. “A lot of people don't understand and think dragon might be something bad. But in the Asian culture, dragon is something good.

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“It basically means, if you're a dragon at your art, you've put in the time, you've conditioned yourself. You've done your studies and you're a master at your art. Now, you are a dragon.”

Ledet brings his accordion mastery to Acadiana Roots at 7 p.m. Nov. 15 in The Daily Advertiser’s Community Room. The $10 admission includes light snacks, beverages and songs and stories from a musician whose squeezebox skills have allowed him to tour Russia, Malaysia, Hawaii and other distant locales.

Ledet’s new “Accordion Dragon” CD features an old-school house party starter sung in Creole, “J'ai Parti Dans La Campagne (I Went to the Country).” Mark St. Cyr, a critical care specialist and trumpet player, and Robert “Saxy” Richard provide a horn section in select songs.

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Ledet was thrilled to learn that the CD, released a little more than a month ago, is on rotation with an online radio station in New Zealand.

Wherever his songs travel, Ledet hopes they put the fun back in music.

“If the music is feeling good, it's going to make you feel good. For me, when it comes to September, I start listening to Christmas music. It's happy music. It puts you in a happy mood.

“With my style of Louisiana zydeco, I want to make people feel good with it. I want to bring it all over the world. I would love to go somewhere in Asia one day and play my zydeco over there. I think that would be cool.”

Herman Fuselier is music and entertainment writer for the Times of Acadiana and Daily Advertiser. Contact him at hfuselier@theadvertiser.com.