Joe Keit vs. shaolin monk?

[Shaolindynasty]

Hey Joe I was checking out your wooden dummy video and it mentioned you defeated a shaolin monk at a tournament in 2000. What's the story behind that? Was it forms or sparring?

[ed78]

it was in forms. the monks at the tournament didn't fight. how good they would be at sparring is another question.

[Shaolindynasty]

What division in the forms competition was it?

What monk? Was it one of the ones teaching in the USA now or was it a group from china?I'm just asking because i'm curious you don't have to tell me or you can pm me if you don't want to put it out there.


Also what form did Joe compete with?

[Shaolindynasty]

oh yeah, what tournament?

[Sow Choy]

Hi Shaolin...

It was in orlando at Wah lum's Tournament 2000...

I competed in hand form, short weapon, long weapon, open hand form and sparring...

i won 2 1st places which made me qualify for the Grand Champion Division...

What happened was we were all lined up at the end, i was limping from being hurt a bit from sparring, resprained my big toe...

When he lined up we thought he will be in the wushu division, but he said he was doin a traditional form... This lately is getting controversial, seems like alot of wushu is crossing over into traditional, but i am not gonna complain...

So, some others said..."hey, he is wushu", but they said he would do a traditional form...

I won only by a point or so... The judges said I had more power in the form, but still, alot of people were supportive & happy for me, since an american won, and a few people thought they were a bit snobby...

But it wasn't easy, i was gonna sit out that one, but after speaking with him... he wasn't very friendly, so I decided to go for it.

My sifu likes to promote that Grand Championship alot... and a student of ours produced the tapes, so I think the word defeat is funny, since its only forms... and no, they did not fight...

All the judges, there was 6-7, all were old traditional styles, so maybe if there were a few wushu judges, i would have lost. But whatever, it was not easy...

Joe

[WanderingMonk]

Sow Choy

Your article in the KFM was awesome.

[GARRA DE TIGRE]

hello joe


i got the tape of wah lum tournament 2000 and your performance of siu ping kuen is great !!! you deserve your first place including that prize bigger than you given for master wai hong ( fu jow pai ) and master chan pui ( wah lum ) .

here in my country happens the same with this shaolin forms they say is traditional , but have the word modern wushu written all over it . i have a tape of that shaolin enciclopedia when you can see praying mantis forms with high jumps and panther and crane forms with a lot of acrobatics .


where is the old and loved bak siu lum system ?

[Sow Choy]

WM,

Thank you... I am glad you liked it.

Garra...

Thank you too, and thank you for your letter about ideas for new videos...

Also let me tell you... I have started a page or 2 on our website that will be sort of like a magazine, now the topic is basic stances. This will be a way to help our students at our school, or those who learn overseas about some basics, techniques, theory, etc...

Check it out, we call it CLF Insider...

I have tremendous respect for the wushu players, some are amazing. And I love how the players from Shaolin have more of a traditional flare... Great to see...

But still, I know people judge things differently, but I look at technique, how much is in a form... Example, i am not a big fan of the wushu version of double broadsword... Alot of flowers and quick spinning moves and poses.

Exciting to some, but there is room for everybody... Make a division for them, and most tournaments do...

But being a judge time to time... It becomes tough when the shaolin wushu people claim to be traditional, and then either A. they are judged poorly for being to flashy (they get mad or worse, their parents get mad) or B. they are judged with high scores and the students of traditional styles: Choy Lay Fut, Bak Siu Lum, Chin Woo, Southern Mantis, etc..., they get discouraged and stop competing or even worse... quit

So I just wish we could separate things to help push kung fu in the right direction, as well as push wushu in the right direction.

Now i hope we can start a new thread, and let this one go... i feel weird seeing my name on here...

Joe

[Eddie]

Hey Joe,
how about next time you beat them (the monks) at their own forms? You told me you learned some Shaolin, and I know you can do it. Would like to hear what they have to say then.

I also got a copy of that tape from Garra and I agree your form was way better and much more technical than the shaolin guy (even though he moved like crazy).

Obviously I would take your side, but I do appreciate good kung fu when I see it (and that monk was also very good).

In that competition, those wah lum guys were awesome.

Shave your head . I think you will look good in orange too
Ed ( I am half way there, havent had hair for years, now I just need the skill ).

[brothernumber9]

Technically I wouldn't call that kid a monk. He was from one of the village schools I beleive that won the right to represent shaolin on that occassion, however of the contingent he came with most would agree he was the best of their bunch. He was pretty sharp but his "tradititional" form was a bit more flashy than what most traditional forms looked like. Nonetheless he was scored poorly partly due to his flashyness and his brashness.

The mens and womens traditional grandchampionships were good to watch. It was a huge tournament and those that won were good representatives of their Sifu and styles. I had a few gripes about some things but overall it was one of the more memorable tournaments I've been to. I was particularly happy to see my Sije win womens traditional grand. I hope another big tourney like that could happen again in the near future.

[Sow Choy]

Hey Brother,

Your sijeh was so awesome!!! It is always a pleasure to see your school at a tournament, I was just in Seattle and really enjoyed seeing you guys there, even your kids are awesome... My regards to everybody, especially James whom I haven't seen since 2000 unfortunately.

Eddie,

My Shaolin is kindergarten level... lol So I would rather not. Some of my kf brothers were pushing me to do CLF's drunken form for the finals, but I wanted to keep it traditional. These days I am not very excited about that form.

What made me laugh was the applause the monk (kid) or whatever you wanna call him, was getting for just holding a stance... i spoke with some of the little kids, they were cute and nice, but at that moment i was tired of the "shaolin monks are cool" mentality...

I get more excited watching a good "Hung Gar" or "Hung Fut" master than a Shaolin Monk... But thats just my taste. I just hope more will be done to promote what we love so much... The Kung Fu famous for its time in the Ching Dynasty... The styles which are legendary for many reasons.

As far as being a monk... Many Monks in China are just government employees... So not to knock anyone, but I will always have my doubts, as I do with all religions...

I am very impressed with one school there at Shaolin however... "The Shaolin TV and Film Institute", the master is Shi Guolin's Kung Fu brother... So I hope to one day visit and learn from Shi Guolin as well...

You see, I really feel there is alot to learn from everybody, there is room for us all... But I really would like to see more done for the traditional technique oriented styles...

Joe

[Shaolindynasty]

Interesting, My Sihing Phil said that CLF could look as exciting to people as wushu it's just that most of us traditional guys have bad rythem. Guess he's right

[CLFNole]

CLF looks very good to the eye just as Hung Gar, Hung Fut and Jow Gar do. The difference is in the acrobatics and wild posing that wushu has not to mention the lack of any observable applications.

Tournaments in general have become to political and judging is a personal taste thing, so no one really wins like in an actual sporting event. Someone from a less flashy style might do perfect form however the form might not be pleasing to the eye and therefore results in a lower score to someone whose form might not have been as good but might have had some more difficult kicks and low stances (just an example).

Better trained judges that are impartial would help; however that will never happen. One should go to tournaments and do their best and feel good about what they did.

I totally agree with by kung fu bro Joe on this that wushu and "real traditional" kung fu should be separated. Styles that have added non-traditional wushu elements should change their forms to be traditional, be penalized or join the wushu ranks.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

I totally agree with by kung fu bro Joe on this that wushu and "real traditional" kung fu should be separated. Styles that have added non-traditional wushu elements should change their forms to be traditional, be penalized or join the wushu ranks.

Peace. [/B]

However, when you try to identify elements that classify it as "wushu" you get people saying "but hey wait a minute there is a traditional style X which has that technique." It seems hard to classify what exactly makes Wushu.....Wushu. The problem is that they borrow from the traditional arts so it makes the distinction fuzzy. They borrow and they "Wushu-ize" it. What criteria could we use to penalize?

[CLFNole]

To me its pretty easy to clarify what is traditional and what isn't. If a CLF or Hung Gar player jumps into a split, does a barrel roll or a butterfly kick, well guess what .... put on the pink pajamas and get into the wushu division. More and more I see students adding by themselves or pushed by their instructors to add flashy moves to make the form "look prettier", this only leads to more and more of a watering down effect to traditional kung fu. Each style generally has an ample amount of forms to choose from. Students should pick a few forms that both look good and are traditional and perfect them. No need to add more, I can see slight variations to stances but not wholesale changes.

It is harder with northern styles however they are generally separated from southern. A lot of the northern styles share similar kicking elements and some do splits. Not being a northern expert by any stretch of the imagination northern players should judge northern competitors and would be able to tell what is traditional and what is adding theatrics.

Peace.