Joe Keit vs. shaolin monk?

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

1st of all, your mailbox is full, wanted to thank you again for Seattle... I am waiting for you to come here...

2nd...

I may be wrong... but i remember some tournaments which would list which styles could compete... Example: Traditional Southern Long (Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, Lama, Hop Gar, etc...)

then another division... Other Traditional styles...

Because our brothers in the Short division deserve a fair shot too. They should compete against other Hakka or short handed styles which have similar foundations...

I would really hate to see Southern mantis adding butterfly kicks to compete against wah lum mantis... ya know???

To each his own...

But i for one love to see the traditional styles in full force... Seattle was a treat for me to see some really good Hung fut, Jow Ga, Hung ga, Chin woo and others...

With my example above I think everyone will be more happy, because as the old saying goes...

"Those who matter, don't mind and those that mind, don't matter...

I have lost alot won alot, and it don't matter, I just love kung fu... That feeling being out tre, the energy, those moments into the form... the adrenaline...e
So the trophy/ medal collectors will be happy, even if the divisions are smaller, cause it appears they are only after a medal anyway, thats fine... maybe one day they will understand what it really is all about...

It's nice to just look at all the styles without any prejudice and admire the skill, but like CLF Nole said ... there needs to be a standard in judging...

Joe

[SifuX-HSK]

What's up MR. Keit,

can i have your autograph? you are becoming a super-hero.

naw, how's it going you big timer?! i just got back from Kansas doing a little seminar and filming footage for my dvd.

hey, there is something i would like your advice on, so i'll call you personally, later.

just stopped by to say hello to you.

frank

[Sow Choy]

Hi Frank...

How was kansas? Give me a call, if you need my number I can email it to you.

And please... I am nobody special, just Joe Schmoe

[SifuX-HSK]

hey joe, yes please email me the number at hungloonghsk@hotmail.com


thanks

frank,

oh kansas was cool. the weather was nice. i had fun.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by CLFNole
To me its pretty easy to clarify what is traditional and what isn't. If a CLF or Hung Gar player jumps into a split, does a barrel roll or a butterfly kick, well guess what .... put on the pink pajamas and get into the wushu division.

I see your point. However, I could point to various competitions where I have seen such moves. And here's the thing...I've even seen it from people within our own kung fu family (aka LKH) competing in so-called "traditional" forms. I'm not naming names but I think you know who I'm talking about.

It is harder with northern styles however they are generally separated from southern. A lot of the northern styles share similar kicking elements and some do splits. Not being a northern expert by any stretch of the imagination northern players should judge northern competitors and would be able to tell what is traditional and what is adding theatrics.

Peace.

Good point.

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
[B]Fu Pow,

1st of all, your mailbox is full, wanted to thank you again for Seattle... I am waiting for you to come here...

I cleared out a few messages, it should work now.

I may be wrong... but i remember some tournaments which would list which styles could compete... Example: Traditional Southern Long (Choy Lay Fut, Hung Gar, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, Lama, Hop Gar, etc...)

then another division... Other Traditional styles...

Because our brothers in the Short division deserve a fair shot too. They should compete against other Hakka or short handed styles which have similar foundations...

I would really hate to see Southern mantis adding butterfly kicks to compete against wah lum mantis... ya know???

But that's just the thing. You almost HAVE TO "wush-ize" your art to compete and win. The judges aren't judging you on how well you do YOUR art, they're judging based on a lot of criteria that isn't art specific. When you have judges from lots of different arts then it becomes a question of "performance" and "difficulty." ie how much of a "showman" you are and the "difficulty" of your moves. Flashy moves get more points because they often carry higher "difficulty ratings." Its like the olympics where a gymnast gets higher points for a more difficult technique even if he did not execute it as well as the other gymnast. So if you want to win you almost have to "one up" your opponent by doing flashier moves.

If we had qualified judges in each division then this wouldn't be as much of an issue but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

This just points to the irrelevance of forms "competition" in terms of martial arts. A martial arts "form" is a training tool, not a performance piece. I mean you can make it that but then you're getting away from the original point of the form.

I'd much rather see a tournament where it was more of a forms "exhibition" followed by sparring, chi sau, etc. It would be a requirement that if you are going to showcase your form then you must demonstrate martial skill in some venue. This would make people keep it real and not get so acrobatic.

Ie you can walk the walk but can you apply what you do in the form?

Anyways, not to say I'm totally down on tournaments. There is value in preparing your form for public exhibition. And that's the attitude that you should really hold going into these things. That you are doing a form "exhibition" and you want to showcase your style in a positive way. Whether you win or lose is pretty much irrelevant to your martial skill.

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

Obviously we are not at the same tournaments...

Many of the tournaments I go to have the same judges, and these judges have become my personal friends. Many are hard working sifus who really love kung fu and are willing to to put in some time and work to make sure things do get done right.

In fact at Jimmy Wongs tournament in Dallas Texas, they mis Shaolin Wushu with traditional kung fu, the Shaolin people say it is traditional, and the tournament allows them in the traditional... So not to argue that point... we judge them on their execution.

So... when a Hung gar player does a strong and solid form, that person can and did win against the back flipping, splits and acrobatic form. When I see someone doing backflips, and I have to allow in our division, as I judge I will look at their flip and judge its technique which is usually sloppy anyway...

And if their form does lack technique, most of us judge it poorly.

So in fairness to the judges I know... We judge according to what you are presenting and its technique. In texas many of the shaolin kids did a warm-up form with absolutely no techniques at all... Just stretches and flips... Some were upset when a hung gar kid, a choy lay fut kid or even a southern mantis kid won 1st place... When we are faced with this dilema of wushu and kung fu mixed, and have no control, we judge how well they execute in their art...

I have no problem with a traditional person doing some wushu... Even i know alot, mainly because I was and have been a b-boy (Breakdance) since I was 10, and have a love for gymnastics, but put it in its place...

One thing is for sure, politics is the cancer for Chinese Martial Arts, and the ones who suffer are our students... So as a judge, and like my many friends who judge also, we do our best to keep traditional kung fu alive and well and
judge it the way it should be judged...

I am not qualified in my opinion to judge anything else, let alone do I feel great about judging in general...

But where I have been, I don't see wushu getting all the good treatment, in fact they get treated more unfairly when they enter traditional...

Just like every other thing in life, there are some who love the art, and some who love their ego... Some who love the competition... and some who love the shiny medals...lol

So, my advice to our wushu brothers is to compete in wushu to be judged correctly, you will not get a medal for flash in most traditional division, at least the ones i have seen...

Joe

[brothernumber9]

Perhaps, in lieu of the continuing growth in shaolin schools, there should now be a separate shaolin (songshan) division in kung fu tournaments. In this division they could opt to have a few sub divisions one of which could be traditional shaolin.

Perhaps we are at a time when what is perceived as "traditional" is changing in definition. However I do agree with others who feel traditional southern styles are relatively easy to recognize and are generally without acrobatics or unnecessary and flambouyant (sp?) movement.

As for "monks" competing, hopefully people will become less caught up in the "shaolin monk" aura, to where they may be judged more objectively in competitions. Sometimes the judges become blinded by the "monk" aura and pre determine that because they are "monks" from China that they are surely gonna win. I remember at Taiji Legacy 2000 one of the "monks" compteting in men's advanced open weapons placed second behind his classmate, despite screwing up his double chain whip form twice and stopping halfway through the form and bowing out. But then again I guess I shouldn't let it bother me since I never complained when I did place, and they probably would treat their medals better than I do since half my medal became door knockers and paper weights.

[Fu-Pow]

Personally, I don't think there is such thing as a "Shaolin" style. If the Shaolin temples (North and South) actually existed I think it is more likely that they taught a variety of different "styles" that came from a wide variety of sources ie village styles, military styles, taoist/buddhist meditation techniques. Much like they do today.

In other world Shaolin was nothing special other than a place where many different styles accumulated. I don't believe that this was ever unified into a somehow superior "Shaolin" system. It was not the "birthplace" of modern kung fu.

At the "Shaolin Temple" of today they teach a large curriculum of stuff that comes from a variety of sources.

Anyways, my point is that I think a better better tournament divisions would be:

-Northern Wai Jia Styles (Chang Quan, Tong Bei, Hong Quan, Ying Jow, Fan Zi Quan, Tai Tzu Quan, Tang Lang, etc, etc.)

- Southern Longfist External Styles (CLF, Hung Fut, Jow Ga, Choy Ga, Hung Ga, Mok Ga, etc. )

- Southern Short Fist ( Wing Chun, Bak Hok, SPM, Lung Ying, etc)

- Northern Nei Jia Styles (Taiji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Liu He Ba Fa, etc).

and everyone's favorite....


WUSHU!

Of course, to get enough qualified judges in any one category is gonna be difficult unless it is a monster tournament.

[Sow Choy]

Fu Pow,

Exactly what I am thinking about the different divisions...

With the Shaolin thing...

It is kinda like Chin Woo, we all consider Chin Woo traditional... But it is a school that has alot of different styles housed in one place. I have seen Mantis, Eagle and even wushu performed by Chin Woo peeps, and they are really good...

But they enter in the correct divisions... Maybe the development of traditional Kung Fu in China and Hong Kong took different routes, but I have only seen in Texas "Shaolin" entering in traditional divisions.

I agree with B9, they should have a separate division for them or go into a Northern Traditional or wushu division to be judged fairly...

But now we go back to politics... A tournament promoter wants the majority happy, too many divisions means less competition, I don't know about you... but I like more people in my division... One time I had over 50 in my hand form division!!! NICE!!

Now, you are luck if you have 15-20...

Well... I hope that more of us..."The Next Generation" will get together and learn from the silly politics and try to do whats better for the students... But "hope" is not enough...

Joe

[CLFNole]

Fu-Pow:

With the exception of demonstrations I can't say I have seen anyone within our branch that adds wushu to their forms. Maybe perhaps with the Drunken Form; however this set lends itself to some free-style sort to speak but not wushu.

Many of us changed endings slightly for asthetic purposes while still maintaining a traditional feel. One must have an open mind to certain things.

The hand sets are the hand sets you just have to do them with the right flow and feel in order for them to look good. Every sifu teaches with a different style (all kung fu not just our line) and thus students will resemble the sifu. Some sifu's have a knack for their style looking good and others do not, not that they are any less effective for fighting. Sifu (Lee Koon Hung) was one whose style looks good and is practical so we were fortunate.

Peace.

[Fu-Pow]

Just for the record I wasn't talking about you Florida guys when I said "and I think you know who I'm talking about."

However, I have to ask.

Why would you guys want to add Wushu to your demonstrations?

[Sow Choy]

Hey Fu-Pow,

We don't add wushu to our demos at all...

But we sometimes change the end or beginning of a form, and sometimes a few of us just combine different parts of the form together...

What happenes for us is... Especially during Chinese New Year, year after year, people do the same forms over and over... Not dissing tradition but I like to mix it up... I will freestyle sometimes or in the beginning of chain whip i throw an "L" kick I learned in Capoeira and then a butterfly kick then throw my whip... Or a 1 handed back flip after a hurricane kick, etc...

i do this because there are times when I am representing my school... and times when I am having fun for myself... Just like fighting, if you are thinking of your next move, thats when you get clocked, so when I do forms I like to be free of thought.

Plus GM Lee Koon Hung was a free styler too it seems... He liked to mix Ping Kuen and Won Hop Kuen (Shek Kin) together. I have seen some nice versions of that one.

Joe

[Fu-Pow]

Originally posted by Sow Choy
Hey Fu-Pow,

We don't add wushu to our demos at all...

But we sometimes change the end or beginning of a form, and sometimes a few of us just combine different parts of the form together...

What happenes for us is... Especially during Chinese New Year, year after year, people do the same forms over and over... Not dissing tradition but I like to mix it up... I will freestyle sometimes or in the beginning of chain whip i throw an "L" kick I learned in Capoeira and then a butterfly kick then throw my whip... Or a 1 handed back flip after a hurricane kick, etc...

i do this because there are times when I am representing my school... and times when I am having fun for myself... Just like fighting, if you are thinking of your next move, thats when you get clocked, so when I do forms I like to be free of thought.

Plus GM Lee Koon Hung was a free styler too it seems... He liked to mix Ping Kuen and Won Hop Kuen (Shek Kin) together. I have seen some nice versions of that one.

Joe

Ok...sorry...miscommunication. Sifu Mak has a Won Hop kuen form of his own. It takes the best of Ping Kuen, Tuet Jin, Sup Ji, etc. into one form.

I have done my own Won Hop Kuen form also...but its usually on accident!

[Sow Choy]

Ha ha,

Even sifu Mak is a freestyler...

I understand what you mean about making it up on accident... Thats why putting it together on the spot can be good for your training so you can move between techniques better... But just don't over due it if you like it, escpecially at demos... They can be good fun and look cool, or be really crappy and ugly to see... lol!!!

Joe