Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?[QUOTE]

I guess they could have called him on their cell phone

[GeneChing]

I was just about to ban Lorenzo Valla for implying that GT was "weak-minded" above and he PMed me an apology for being a newbie and not knowing forum etiquette. Ah, I'm a softy for a well-timed apology, but that only works once. Next time, I doubt I'll be so merciful.

I'm right up against a lot of deadlines now, so I'm itching to going back to work. Banning seems to be the most effective method to mellow out this thread at this time. Please don't PM me for the 'rules' on what might get you banned on this thread as some of you have done. My objective here is to reduce the work this thread brings to me and if I have to answer so many PMs from you all, that's bad. Superfluous PMs to me will get you banned too. If there's any question, just don't post here. Don't take the chance.

Just call me the Shaolin Do Wet Blanket.

[Baqualin]

For All - I didn't erase my last post, but respect the decision of the moderator. Regardless, I believe all of the information is supported and documented.

GT

Your habit of parsing someone's statements to better reflect your position is weak-minded. If you can't argue the thesis and provide some evidence to support your position, then why bother to reply?

I spoke on this forum because that's where the discussion is.

I have photos of Master Ie's grave and stone. The names of his children and grandchildren are on it. Oh, and so is the date. When I post that will you complain to Gene and get the post deleted?

If Sin was the grandmaster in 68 why didn't he sign Master Hiang's certificate in 78 as the head of the system?

Sin's certificate posted on his webpage is the evidence he presents for being the head of the system, or can't you read what it says around the display?

There was no "Sin The Karate Club", "Shaolin Karate-do" or "Shaolin-Do" organization in Indonesia, nor does it appear on Sin's certificate.

The material listed on Sin's certificate is important....its certifies what he studied.

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.

Sin has two children with Lucia. I didn't mention his later wives because I never personally met them.

There are plenty of photos of Master Ie. Maybe I'll post a lineup and GT will pick who is who. Maybe there will be photos of other teachers at the school in Indonesia. Can you name one other teacher of Sin's? Can you post any photos of anything?

I'll be checking on that call to Master Hiang.....

Baqualin

You don't know me, so you don't know where I was or when. 25 years was not necessarily consecutive, just an assumption on your part.

Master Hiang and his family lived in Bandung from 1993 to 1998. He travels back and forth regularly (just two years ago actually). Since his mother passed away he probably won't make as many trips.

If Sin is the head of the system and the bad Hiang didn't tell his brother their grandfather died, why didn't one of the other masters who were still active at that time in Indonesia?

Radhnoti

If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it.

The translation "minored" wasn't meant to be dimunitive....it went on to say that Sin excelled in those subjects and all of his studies.

To all - Let me make a few things clear. The two schools are not the same, the material is no longer the same, and a person's character and integrity matter in their personal and professional lifes.

All of this information is merely to serve as an effort to refute the patently and documented false claims by the Sin The Karate Club to the leadership of the Shaolin community. Master Hiang does not claim to be the head of the entire Shaolin system, merely the grandmaster of the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School, the school founded by his grandfather, a Shaolin monk of the Fukien Shaolin Temple.

Sounds like your trying to justify your own credibility.....I guess we do need to start a new thread is Central Shaolin for real?

[Baqualin]

Sin has not taught the Golden Snake, Iron Finger or Cyclone Leg. Master Hiang has taught all 18 Bird and 18 dagger.[QUOTE]

What's your point

[tattooedmonk]

http://www.sinthe.com/images/2004/

.... now if it is true that master sin was given this certificate and it indicates that he was at fifth level.....

.. take a look at the image of the belt ranking system again...

if you look on the right hand side it says that there are 5 black levels and is bracketed to cover all levels from 1st to 10th black ...

could it is be possible that this certificate indicates that he is the grandmaster and because we are americans translating chinese that this is just a matter of perspective as to whether he is or not the grandmaster or a fifth level blackbelt....

is it possible???

[Baqualin]

Master Hiang kept returning for training to keep progressing and learning. Only in the SD camp's fantasy world does a guy learn 900 forms in the space of a decade, 40 years ago, never teach it and somehow retain it. [QUOTE]

There's around 200 forms listed on your web site thats alot of material and I'm sure M. Hiang knows a few he hasn't taught out...go figure.

You are the one who has opened this can of worms...are you trying to start trouble between brothers again

Yes I do wonder if M. hiang knows what your doing....I don't believe he would approve....he has a nice peaceful life here now and doesn't need turmoil caused by you.

I run across his students all the time and show them the utmost respect...can you say that

[Radhnoti]

Radhnoti - "If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?"

It calls GM Sin "my grandson".

Here's my a copy of what I've got...secondhand from a Hiang student I might add.

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’ I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!"

A frequent contributor to this thread has told me that he's seen one of the "precious treasures"...

[Lorenzo Valla]

I appreciate the opportunity that the Kung Fu Magazine forum has provided to put a dissenting view out for discussion. I honestly have no further comments to make on this subject or any other.

In the preceding 221 pages I have watched the loyal SD supporters stick to their guns and I do respect that. They are certainly not fair-weather friends to their teachers or fellow students. But I also took note of their claims and comments about my friend.

The effort wasn't to recruit you or change your mind; it was to make sure that other visitors (like me) who come to this forum have a more complete understanding of what is being said and claimed.

[Radhnoti]

I'd love it if you'd comment on your opinion of the validity of this letter Lorenzo. Probably not a Sin supporter as it says "grandson". Probably not a Hiang supporter as it says "10th degree". I believe that it was originally posted by a guy named "James Hall".

Anyway, I love having GM Hiang's students come around to offer counterbalance...GroundDragon comes to mind as a GREAT source of information (and a seemingly great guy) that I'd never have had access to otherwise.

GM Hiang still teaching that Su Kong was the head of the martial portion of the southern shaolin temple bolsters my belief that this is what they were taught...though not necessarily that this is the actual history. It's a fun historic puzzle to me...just enough facts and truths to keep me interested.

[BentMonk]

This whole debate is like an old movie on Kung Fu Theater. Unless there are some physical pieces of evidence unearthed by archaeologists in the near future, this debate is never going to end. As Rad said, there's just enough mystery to keep us all curious. I am curious, but I have really stopped caring beyond that. As I've said, everyone in SD has been nothing but good to me. I have had the honor of spending lots of informal time with GM Sin. I consider myself a decent judge of character. I do not get the feeling from GM Sin that he is anything other than what he says he is. GM Sin has taught the history of SD as it was taught to him. If he did exaggerate a bit it was likely an attempt to compete in an American marketplace that was filled with "Masters" of this art, "Grandmasters" of that art. So what? He wasn't the first to do it, and he sure as heck wasn't the last. It also doesn't make him a bad person. I think most people who study MA need to quit living in the past and realize that we are the new lineage. MA history as a whole is rampant with inconsistent legends. CLF, WC, XY, practitioners of these arts devote countless pages to debating who has "the purist" lineage, or "the most effective" set of techniques. This whole thread is just a different verse of the same song. Heck a few pages back I posted this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGIHXVeL24o&NR It is nearly identical to the "Iron Man" form SD does. The man in the interview states that his system traveled from Fukien, and if you watch the whole clip my SD friends will see a lot more similarities. I thought this gave a lot of credibility to SD's origins, and yet no one said anything. Hmm...go figure.

[Radhnoti]

I have a friend in Isshinryu that does a similar kata called Sanchin as well...
Here's some comments about Sanchin from an Isshinryu site:

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen.

My conclusion from my sources is Sanchin is in all probability the oldest practiced kata on Okinawa and its roots come from China. The Chinese martial arts are believed to come from Bodhidharma's teachings to the Shaolin Monks. In reality Sanchin does date back to that time in one form or another and Sanchin as we practice it today comes from Miyagi through Tatsuo Soke."

I'd have commented on it, but my dial up connection (I live too far out in the country for any reasonable high speed connection) makes it unlikely I'll ever view a video online.

[The Willow Sword]

That was a great vid on okinawa karate.
TWS

[BentMonk]

Yes it was, thank you. lol You know darn good and well I was using that as an example that SD is not the only art with Chinese origins that doesn't have the outer trappings that most associate with TCMA. BTW, I saw your post several pages back concerning what you've been going through and your posting demeanor. If it helps I've been there too, and it does get better. It still sucks while you're in the shiat, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. No hard feelings at all. I wish you the best man. Peace.

[Judge Pen]

Radhnoti - "If there is a letter from Master Ie appointing Sin then why isn't that on display at the Gold Rush gym instead of the certificate?"

It calls GM Sin "my grandson".

Here's my a copy of what I've got...secondhand from a Hiang student I might add.

"Master Ie Chang Ming’s Letter to Sin The’ I was born in love with Wu Shu (martial arts or kung fu). In the early time, I traveled everywhere in China to learn Martial arts, and had been up to North Korea. It has been 50 years since I moved down to south. I had been through a lot of tough times. But when I looked it back, I surely had a lot of unforgettable memory. Now I am presenting you this level ten black belt with red honor strip, on behalf of all the colleagues in this gang. I wish you strictly keep all the rule, and develop the spirit of martial arts. This is what I want to say to you today. Do your best! To My Grandson and Disciple, Sin Kwan, Iron Palm Master Postscript: The three self-defending treasures, which have been with me through my living from place to place, are the Jade Smoking Stick, Drunk Man’s Crutch, and Ancient Money Shaped Son-Mother Biao (a dart like weapon). These three things look like necessaries for common travelers. Nobody will ever pay attention to them. Actually, you never know how powerful they are when you are in danger. They are my precious treasures. But I am already over seventy years old, and I decided not to use these weapons for a long time. Now, I give these to you as gifts. I wish you use them well and keep them properly. About “Biao”, you are better not to use it, because “Biao” is very easy to hurt people, and it is hard to control its direction, and also hard to get it back when you throw it out. So be very careful to it, especially that Son-Mother Baio, and never try to throw it out. Please keep in mind!!! Please!!!"

A frequent contributor to this thread has told me that he's seen one of the "precious treasures"...

Yes I've seen the Jade pipe, but only briefly.

"Sanchin practice in regards to the muscle and breath control through dynamic tension does date back through the Chinese Martial Arts to their origin as to the teachings of Bodhidharma. This is in regards to the techniques involved yet the actual Sanchin kata as we practice it today comes from Miyagi who transformed the dynamic tension kata he learned into today's Isshinryu Sanchin Kata.
The techniques and principles behind the Sanchin kata do come from China. Possibly a Crane or Wing Chun practice. Yamaguchi did create a form of Sanchin yet so did others. If you look at some southern Chinese White Crane styles, you'll find some version of Sam Chien. Uechi Ryu has its own version and my opinion is it is probably closer to the original Chinese version using more open hand techniques. Plus, the breathing is nowhere near as "hard" or "harsh" as you will see in the Yamaguchi line of Goju Ryu. There version is much more "natural" in its breathing compared to what most of us have probably seen."

I always thought it was interesting that our version of San Njie was taught at the same time as the withe crane material we have. Incidently, I've seen video from a kung tao site that mentions one of the collegues in their lineage that teaches material very similar to our white crane. MS2 actually pointed it out to me. I don't think they have a good reputation for putting out fighters, but their forms look very similar.

[Golden Tiger]

Yes I've seen the Jade pipe, but only briefly.

Its with him at all times. Pretty cool in my opinion.