Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[themeecer]

The bastardization of proper names

LOL You know what is more annoying than that ... when profanity filters edit words that aren't profane. I saw your first post before you changed the color of the text to bypass the filters.

[Leto]

No Syn7. Those were common English spellings for the words.

It is like when an American pronounces Paris as Paree. Freaking annoying.

Edit: You do realize there was no standardized way to spell these words when it first hit the US. In the early 80s when I learned these, these words were spelled as pa qua and tai chi here.

And yes the pronunciation is somewhere between kua, qua, and gua.

*lol* you think it's annoying when people pronounce words and names from non-English languages correctly? Or is the annoying thing when an American speaks more than one language? "Paree" is the right way to say Paris, because it's a French name. "Kay-bec" is how you say Quebec. "ee-rock" is how you say Iraq. At least the president makes an effort. Many Americans tend to be simultaneously arrogant and ignorant regarding foreign languages (or they act arrogant to cover up their ignorance).
There was a standardized way to spell Chinese words in English, from the 19th century on, it was called the wade-giles romanization system. That's t'ai chi ch'uan and pa kua chang. Now we have the pinyin romanization system which is the preferred and officially used one. So if we want to be accurate and clear for everyone to understand what word we're saying, we use pinyin that's taijiquan and baguazhang. But yes, we all know what you mean by tai chi.

[brucereiter]

No Syn7. Those were common English spellings for the words.

It is like when an American pronounces Paris as Paree. Freaking annoying.

Edit: You do realize there was no standardized way to spell these words when it first hit the US. In the early 80s when I learned these, these words were spelled as pa qua and tai chi here.

And yes the pronunciation is somewhere between kua, qua, and gua.

Hi meecer,

I am not a chinese speaker and it was very confusing when I started learning tai chi chuan I would see books about "taijiquan" and thought this is strange they look the same but have different names. Anyway in time I learned. Check out the linked wiki page for some information on the translations to English. Maybe you are already aware but if not you may find it useful. Note the dates.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade–Giles

[themeecer]

*lol* you think it's annoying when people pronounce words and names from non-English languages correctly? Or is the annoying thing when an American speaks more than one language? "Paree" is the right way to say Paris, because it's a French name. "Kay-bec" is how you say Quebec. "ee-rock" is how you say Iraq. At least the president makes an effort. Many Americans tend to be simultaneously arrogant and ignorant regarding foreign languages (or they act arrogant to cover up their ignorance).
There was a standardized way to spell Chinese words in English, from the 19th century on, it was called the wade-giles romanization system. That's t'ai chi ch'uan and pa kua chang. Now we have the pinyin romanization system which is the preferred and officially used one. So if we want to be accurate and clear for everyone to understand what word we're saying, we use pinyin that's taijiquan and baguazhang. But yes, we all know what you mean by tai chi.

No Leto, it is being pretentious. I speak Spanish but you won't ever hear me call Mexico, Meheco, unless I was actually there. Not only would people around me roll their eyes, there would be a segment who wouldn't understand what I was saying.

Words change pronunciation and spelling when they are assimilated into American English. This is not unique to us, other languages have done this throughout history.

These past few posts were made because of an initial troll. Sean knew full well what Pa Qua was.

Go back to arguing how our pajamas don't match the pajamas of other kung fu schools or something equally important. Oh I'm sorry .. should I have typed gongfu?

[Syn7]

LOL You know what is more annoying than that ... when profanity filters edit words that aren't profane. I saw your first post before you changed the color of the text to bypass the filters.

totally... like ****sapien or ****her...

[Syn7]

*lol* you think it's annoying when people pronounce words and names from non-English languages correctly? Or is the annoying thing when an American speaks more than one language? "Paree" is the right way to say Paris, because it's a French name. "Kay-bec" is how you say Quebec. "ee-rock" is how you say Iraq. At least the president makes an effort. Many Americans tend to be simultaneously arrogant and ignorant regarding foreign languages (or they act arrogant to cover up their ignorance).
There was a standardized way to spell Chinese words in English, from the 19th century on, it was called the wade-giles romanization system. That's t'ai chi ch'uan and pa kua chang. Now we have the pinyin romanization system which is the preferred and officially used one. So if we want to be accurate and clear for everyone to understand what word we're saying, we use pinyin that's taijiquan and baguazhang. But yes, we all know what you mean by tai chi.

No shit, ay. Like where is "Canton" and how does that sound like the real name?

[Syn7]

Hi meecer,

I am not a chinese speaker and it was very confusing when I started learning tai chi chuan I would see books about "taijiquan" and thought this is strange they look the same but have different names. Anyway in time I learned. Check out the linked wiki page for some information on the translations to English. Maybe you are already aware but if not you may find it useful. Note the dates.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wade–Giles

It's all about pinyin. And it was about time they fixed that horror show of a translative process.

[Syn7]

No Leto, it is being pretentious. I speak Spanish but you won't ever hear me call Mexico, Meheco, unless I was actually there. Not only would people around me roll their eyes, there would be a segment who wouldn't understand what I was saying.

Words change pronunciation and spelling when they are assimilated into American English. This is not unique to us, other languages have done this throughout history.

These past few posts were made because of an initial troll. Sean knew full well what Pa Qua was.

Go back to arguing how our pajamas don't match the pajamas of other kung fu schools or something equally important. Oh I'm sorry .. should I have typed gongfu?

So basically you follow suit just to fit in then. Instead of combating the ignorance of bastardization you just jump on the bus?

[Leto]

No Leto, it is being pretentious. I speak Spanish but you won't ever hear me call Mexico, Meheco, unless I was actually there. Not only would people around me roll their eyes, there would be a segment who wouldn't understand what I was saying.

Words change pronunciation and spelling when they are assimilated into American English. This is not unique to us, other languages have done this throughout history.

These past few posts were made because of an initial troll. Sean knew full well what Pa Qua was.

Go back to arguing how our pajamas don't match the pajamas of other kung fu schools or something equally important. Oh I'm sorry .. should I have typed gongfu?

I guess we just disagree about that. I don't think it is pretentious to pronounce or spell words correctly, especially not in martial arts class, where you are saying Chinese words all the time, and people are expecting to be taught. It is being properly informed. I guess if you know you are among people who won't know what you're talking about, you would use the Americanized pronounciations for the sake of clearer communication, if it would help. But I don't think there is anything wrong with educating people, either, if they didn't know how to pronounce a word. How else will anyone learn?
The inability to properly pronounce and spell just about every Chinese word on the part of my teachers is something that really bugged me when I was in CSC. It's not like I even know Chinese, but I could read a quick tutorial from anywhere and learn how to say and spell these names much more accurately. For someone who spends their life teaching Chinese martial arts, you'd think they would make an effort to learn how to pronounce what they are teaching. And spelling words in a non-standardized way just creates confusion for some students, who want to investigate things on their own and don't even know what to look for, especially when we aren't routinely given the Chinese characters for most of our material.

Don't confuse me with an uninformed "hater" of everything SD who argues about uniforms, just because I disagree with you about this. I'm not a SD/Sin The apologist, but I am still interested in the material I learned and want to make it the best I can. Improving my understanding of Chinese is a part of that.

[Empty_Cup]

I guess we just disagree about that. I don't think it is pretentious to pronounce or spell words correctly, especially not in martial arts class, where you are saying Chinese words all the time, and people are expecting to be taught. It is being properly informed. I guess if you know you are among people who won't know what you're talking about, you would use the Americanized pronounciations for the sake of clearer communication, if it would help. But I don't think there is anything wrong with educating people, either, if they didn't know how to pronounce a word. How else will anyone learn?
The inability to properly pronounce and spell just about every Chinese word on the part of my teachers is something that really bugged me when I was in CSC. It's not like I even know Chinese, but I could read a quick tutorial from anywhere and learn how to say and spell these names much more accurately. For someone who spends their life teaching Chinese martial arts, you'd think they would make an effort to learn how to pronounce what they are teaching. And spelling words in a non-standardized way just creates confusion for some students, who want to investigate things on their own and don't even know what to look for, especially when we aren't routinely given the Chinese characters for most of our material.

...

Does anybody know if the notes/names/etc. used by GMS are Mandarin, Cantonese, or something else? I thought I read once there was some kind of Southern dialect he used but can't remember.

As for other languages, I totally understand what themeecer is talking about. But more from a "I want to be able to understand you" perspective. Try pronouncing "paprika" with the true Hungarian pronunciation and people will look at you with blank stares.

[kwaichang]

Who cares how a word of Chinese origin is spelled. Ma is spelled that way , but we say Ma Bu and may be saying Horse or Mother. Better work on saying it right instead of with the wrong tone and mean something else. Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want . Just say it the right way. You guys kill me also who says Halopinio, or Jalopeno? KC

[Orion Paximus]

It takes little to zero effort to learn enough mandarin or cantonese (or both) to service you in a Kung Fu school setting. There is no excuse to not know the pinyin or pronunciation for the handful of words required. It's only if you do not care at all that you would continue to use incorrect pronunciation and spelling and if that is the case, why bother trying to use the Chinese at all? Why not just use engrish?

Can't say Bagua? Say 8 Triagram or something. Because it DOES matter.

[sean_stonehart]

It takes little to zero effort to learn enough mandarin or cantonese (or both) to service you in a Kung Fu school setting. There is no excuse to not know the pinyin or pronunciation for the handful of words required. It's only if you do not care at all that you would continue to use incorrect pronunciation and spelling and if that is the case, why bother trying to use the Chinese at all? Why not just use engrish?

Can't say Bagua? Say 8 Triagram or something. Because it DOES matter.

Rock on...

[Leto]

Who cares how a word of Chinese origin is spelled. Ma is spelled that way , but we say Ma Bu and may be saying Horse or Mother. Better work on saying it right instead of with the wrong tone and mean something else. Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want . Just say it the right way. You guys kill me also who says Halopinio, or Jalopeno? KC

If you're speaking, you should say it correctly. If you're writing something down, you should write it correctly so people know what you mean. I know writing Chinese words with our alphabet is never going to match up completely. It doesn't matter so much, really, especially if you recognize the Chinese characters...but it isn't "gay crap" to use the correct romanization system, as themeecer said, that's the only reason I started talking about it. If he had never said that, I never would have commented. I don't care that he wrote "pa qua" even though it is wrong, because I know what he meant. It's not "PC crap", it's the correct way to romanize Chinese words. It becomes unintelligible if everyone just spells words whatever way they want, especially Chinese words. That's why they invented romanization systems. And I would find it a bit unprofessional for a Chinese martial arts instructor (or even long time practitioner) not to know the correct way write the name of their own styles. The different Chinese dialects do confuse things somewhat, and the SD system is the most confused because they use different dialects for the names of different forms and styles within the system. But for the names which are in mandarin, like tai chi/taiji and pa kua/bagua, there are two correct ways they can be spelled, and really only one way if you want to be current.
There is no judgement or blame for anyone not being aware of something like the romanization system, there's a first time to learn about everything, but why this attitude about it? Yes, Sin The didn't care or know and didn't use the correct spelling, back in the day. Given everything that we know now, I wouldn't hang my hat on that as justification for anything, especially for someone who wants to convince people that they know and teach Chinese martial arts.

PS. I hope nobody in America pronounces jalapeno with an english "j" sound, instead of "hala-pane-yo". lol
It makes me think of Napoleon Dynamite: "Make yourself a kay sa dilla!"

[wenshu]

Screw following the PC crap spell it how u want .

The romanization of Chinese has absolutely nothing to do with political correctness.

Kind of like how all those videos you keep posting of random martial artists have absolutely nothing to do with Shaolin Do whatsoever.

Hey guys look at this video I found of some karate! It kind of reminds me of Shaolin Do!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bTR_Op0Ges

I would point out that the proper spelling of terms is actually about literacy but we all know that would be completely lost on you.