View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

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    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #5866
    "No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one."

    I've made no less than THREE points dude. And I've made them repeatedly!! I can't help it if you don't understand them.

    "Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that."

    I guess my attempt at getting a rise out of you worked.LOL. Usually when they have resorted to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the argument. Yawn!




    "Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50"

    For the record..I'm engaged...yes..to a woman. Usually when they resort to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the debate.




    "You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you." There's a SD school only about a mile away from my apartment. No need to go to GA.




    "
    Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question."

    I did.

    "That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question."

    Oh? When I take a fight between two people..I don't "assume" anything. The scenario you were describing about how "Now lets assume ..." and "lets also assume"..I try and never do.

    "Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass."

    You can have super mechanics and be slow. You can also have superior mechanics and lack a good strategy. So to can a person have superior mechanics and not have the ability to adapt to a changing situation.

    "Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health."

    Tangent #...? I forgot..Tangent #10? Now we are talking about surgery?


    "That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question"

    And I'll speak even S-L-O-W-E-R to yoooouuuuu..because you've got alot to learn sir!! You can talk about hypothetical situations till the river runs dry, I'm talking about an ACTUAL situation. You want to eliminate those variables..go ahead..but taking them into consideration will determine who wins the fight!


    " is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records."

    I've neve been to Iraq or North Korea yet..does your comment mean that I need to go to either place to read about it's TRUE history?


    "Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born"

    There was a temple allright. It may not have been functionng as it did in the Ming dynasty- but it sure existed.

    "until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

    Ah yes..making money just like Sin Kwang The has done..and it seems quite handsomely from people(read you ) who want to believe a revisionist history of a style of kung fu which calls forms "katas"..all 900 of them.

    We can play this game all day buddy! Ya know what? I grow tiresome of this pointless diatribe. If you doubt me..take a trip to either Shaolin temple(since you are so fond of using the visiting angle as a platform to further your argument) and mention to the head Abbott that Su Kong Djin was the "grandmaster of the temple" and learned 900 forms. I am sure that he would be polite and not laugh but that doesnt mean he likely would not be thinking "is this guy on crack?".

    " My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection."


    I'm 41 and clearly you are missing the mark.


    As for a SD beating an 8 step sifu in a real fight..I have no desire to do this and I can tell you with certainty it would be no contest--900 forms or not!

    I find that people who are confident of their ability in what they are studying do not need to issue internet tough guy challenges all the way from Georgia. Nuff said..

    EM

  2. #5867
    "No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one."

    I've made no less than THREE points dude. And I've made them repeatedly!! I can't help it if you don't understand them.

    "Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that."

    I guess my attempt at getting a rise out of you worked.LOL. Usually when they have resorted to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the argument. Yawn!




    "Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50"

    For the record..I'm engaged...yes..to a woman. Usually when they resort to ad homenim attacks on your character..it is a sign they have lost the debate.




    "You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you." There's a SD school only about a mile away from my apartment. No need to go to GA.




    "
    Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question."

    I did.

    "That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question."

    Oh? When I take a fight between two people..I don't "assume" anything. The scenario you were describing about how "Now lets assume ..." and "lets also assume"..I try and never do.

    "Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass."

    You can have super mechanics and be slow. You can also have superior mechanics and lack a good strategy. So to can a person have superior mechanics and not have the ability to adapt to a changing situation.

    "Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health."

    Tangent #...? I forgot..Tangent #10? Now we are talking about surgery?


    "That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question"

    And I'll speak even S-L-O-W-E-R to yoooouuuuu..because you've got alot to learn sir!! You can talk about hypothetical situations till the river runs dry, I'm talking about an ACTUAL situation. You want to eliminate those variables..go ahead..but taking them into consideration will determine who wins the fight!


    " is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records."

    I've neve been to Iraq or North Korea yet..does your comment mean that I need to go to either place to read about it's TRUE history?


    "Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born"

    There was a temple allright. It may not have been functionng as it did in the Ming dynasty- but it sure existed.

    "until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

    Ah yes..making money just like Sin Kwang The has done..and it seems quite handsomely from people(read you ) who want to believe a revisionist history of a style of kung fu which calls forms "katas"..all 900 of them.

    We can play this game all day buddy! Ya know what? I grow tiresome of this pointless diatribe. If you doubt me..take a trip to either Shaolin temple(since you are so fond of using the visiting angle as a platform to further your argument) and mention to the head Abbott that Su Kong Djin was the "grandmaster of the temple" and learned 900 forms. I am sure that he would be polite and not laugh but that doesnt mean he likely would not be thinking "is this guy on crack?".

    " My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection."


    I'm 41 and clearly you are missing the mark.


    As for a SD beating an 8 step sifu in a real fight..I have no desire to do this and I can tell you with certainty it would be no contest--900 forms or not!

    I find that people who are confident of their ability in what they are studying do not need to issue internet tough guy challenges all the way from Georgia. Nuff said..

    EM

  3. #5868
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    Kung Fu means mastering a skill through hard work, or time and effort. practicing karate is "kung fu". practicing tae kwon do is "kung fu". Painting, calligraphy, and cooking are all "kung fu". Shaolin do is definately Kung Fu. It was definately taught by a man of Chinese descent, born and raised in Indonesia, who adapted himself to live and do business in America. It's content is similar enough to other Chinese styles that it is plausible that it has a similar root as all those other styles which say they came from shaolin, and different enough that we can't say it actually is one of those other styles. (only a few of the forms seem to be exactly the same as those taught by other styles). Which forms came from where, who and when is unknown. How and why different elements were added can be debated, but can't be known for sure without talking to the people who added them.

    not getting sufficient training, not understanding core principles, and employing various organizational methods does not change what animal it is.

    If it looks like a dragon and sounds like a dragon, it must be a dragon. Now what's a dragon?
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  4. #5869
    Sorry for the repeated post.

    " Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born - until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money"

    So let me get this straight. Up until 1982 there was no Shaolin temple. It never existed and some guy ..lets call him John Smith said "Hey..I've got a great idea..I was tripping on some awesome LSD last night..and I thought it would be a great marketing gimmick to make this new place called a "Shaolin temple". What's that you say? I'm gonna build this elborate structure with walls and a 1,000 pound gold Buddah. As another way to draw people in..I'm going to ask all my beer drinking buddies who are at home watching Jerry Springer to shave their heads, take a vow of celibacy, become vegetarians and try this new thing called "kung fu".

    Clearly sir..you have delusions of grandeur!! For starters lets take a look at how if there was "NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE" since long before I was born..there would be no kung fu(of ANY style)..much less a "system of Shaolin"..much less..you guessed it..NO SHAO-LIN DO!!!

    Therefore..I can only conclude that you are quite gullable and fall for just about any claim offered by someone and this is potentiated by the fact that he makes an innacurate claim that he was the "Grandmaster of Shao-lin".

    I can claim that the USA elects a prime-minister as they do in Canada..doesn't mean its so!

  5. #5870
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    I take Shao-lin Tao at one of the Atlanta schools. My wife studies TKD and I can tell you they are worlds apart.

    I like the people I've met in Shao-lin Tao (I'm new to it) and I think they have some great instructors. But like anything...some instructors aren't as great, but that doesn't mean the school is fake. Most everyone has a full time job.

    As far as lineage is concerned. I try not to get into the lineage discussion because I think it's a waste of time. Nothing is proven and I'm a skeptic anyway. If I can't prove something, I won't waste my time on it.

    If you have questions about Shaolin-do or Shao-lin Tao (whereever you are located). Stop in and watch a class... you can even attend if you want. Nobody will bite.. we're all nice people like you. I don't feel like I'm being "taken" by attending a school with a non-proven lineage because I went in and watched. Liked what I saw and signed up.

    Too bad the internet bullies won't bother to check it out for themselves.

    peace,
    synack

  6. #5871
    "It was definately taught by a man of Chinese descent, born and raised in Indonesia, who adapted himself to live and do business in America"

    There is no Shaolin temple in Indonesia.

    I've been unfairly judged here. I'm not saying that SD is an ineffective fighting style..nor am I suggesting that a person should not learn it.

    I'm sure that the style trains its practitioners adequately to get the job done..and in the end..that is what matters..

    It's with some of the CLAIMS made..that's a horse of a different color.

  7. #5872
    There is no Shaolin temple in Indonesia.
    Correct - there was no Shaolin Temple anywhere at the time GM The' began training. Yes, the temple was reopened/rebuilt around 1982. There was a Shaolin Temple(s) at least until the 1920's. So, if it about the building and not the transference of knowledge - then none of us have traditional Shaolin Kung Fu. We could only have the new 25 year old style called Shaolin because it comes from a building that was reconstructed on the same site. They teach modern wushu there.


    I've been unfairly judged here. I'm not saying that SD is an ineffective fighting style..nor am I suggesting that a person should not learn it.
    Thank you.

    I'm sure that the style trains its practitioners adequately to get the job done..and in the end..that is what matters..
    Again - I agree and thank you. I have seen some outstanding people in Shaolin-Do and some awful ones. Just like any school/style/system/art/ that has a lot of students.

    It's with some of the CLAIMS made..that's a horse of a different color.
    Cannot argue this point. Some of the claims and history are "out there" I really wish they weren't.

    .............................

    To say it isn't CMA is silly. Yes, we use too many Japanese terms, but that does not change the forms/katas Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look? In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin. In one of Robert Smiths first books he had a quote from a Chinese martial arts master that was essentially "Karate is nothing more that rudimentary Shaolin" If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate. You would also need the I Chin Ching and a few other things to be real traditional.

    However, if you believe that it is only CMA if it falls into the what we would classify as being modern. We have many forms that are taught in other CMA schools. Our Tiger/Crane, Classical Hua, Preying Mantis, some spear forms, some of the Drunken forms, several of the sword forms, etc. etc. etc. If we aren't doing CMA then most CMA schools aren't either.

    Hopefully, we can all agree that our lineage and history are suspect. But, as in any school, the people that train hard, develop skills and improve their health.

    Some of you may never have seen any of our art done by reasonably skilled people. I just found these clips on Master Grooms' YouTube Channel. Maybe I'm wrong, but broadsword, drunken, and 3-sectional sound Chinese to me. The 3-sectional is just a guy with a few years training doing some spins. The other two forms can be found elsewhere in the world of CMA.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

  8. #5873
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    Exclamation

    Well i'm throwing myself in the mix again. Just for the hack of it. I love this discussion. There's no end to it!
    Anyway, Shaolin-Do...
    Allright picture this:

    Put a shaolin-do practicioner in say pants, feiyue shoes and a t-shirt.
    Change all the terminology into Chinese. Call Shaolin-Do Shaolin-Tao or something else.
    I don't think anyone would be complaining as much as they do now.
    And again if you people have been reading through the posts.
    Yes!
    There was a school in Bandung Indonesia and yes they taught kung fu.
    (And kun-tao for the indonesian people.)

    Let's examen this for awhile. It's 1961. Indonesia, there were not many kung fu schools outside of Asia.
    There were no big branches no commercially exploited international schools with shiny uniforms.

    It was hardcore to the bone. The trainingregiments in those days were grizly hard.
    Broken bones and other serious injuries are not uncommon you train everyday for 6 hours.

    Instead of going 2/3 times a week for 2 hours to your local school after work.
    If you know some history about indonesia after WWII you would know that chinese we're(and still are) not the most loved people there. CMA and other traditions we're forbidden by the state.

    So some masters put the pupils in Gi's and gave them rankingbelts and used indonesian/japanese terminology. In secret they were still teaching kung fu.
    In those days, who the hell cared what you wore anyway??
    On the old black and white pictures i see just an old man with a white t shirt and black pants and chinese shoes.

    It reminds me of Skateboarding back in the day. If you didn't wore Airwalk sneakers an pants hanging on your ass and XXL shirts and used words from the street you weren't a real "skater" according to the so called "skaters maffia". But one guy who just wore "normal clothing" and just spoke "normal" beated all of the other guys on technique speed and agility.

    Is this happening to the kung fu? We now have a kungfu maffia deciding for us what's real kung fu and what's not based on what language they speak/use and what clothes they were and what kind of system they use to keep track of each students progress??
    Last edited by WhiteEarp; 06-28-2007 at 03:11 AM.

  9. #5874
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    Finally!

    Of the three clips posted the drunken form is, IMO the best one. I consider this to be an example of good SD. I also see nothing but TCMA in that form.
    "Repugnant is a creature that would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of it's fleeting time here." - Tool

    www.bentmonk.com

  10. #5875
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    Quote Originally Posted by BentMonk View Post
    Of the three clips posted the drunken form is, IMO the best one. I consider this to be an example of good SD. I also see nothing but TCMA in that form.
    Nah! It's apparent now after watching those three vids that GM The is totally ripping us off! Any of these trolls, Erasmus, TH50, could kick Master Grooms @$$. I don't even know who they are or if they're any good, but they talk a lot of trash so they must be a bunch of bad@$$es!

    "It's not real kung fu because you guys wear japanese gi's; and 'Do's a japanese word."

    LOL

    You trolls are the ones that keep this thread going, so in that respect, thank you.
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.
    - Aristotle

    The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.
    - Arthur C. Clarke

  11. #5876
    Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look? In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin. In one of Robert Smiths first books he had a quote from a Chinese martial arts master that was essentially "Karate is nothing more that rudimentary Shaolin" If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate.

    There is no absolute proof of anything, so how do we know?

    But of course i know, because i take shaolin do!

    Last edited by sunfist; 06-28-2007 at 05:13 AM.

  12. #5877
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunfist View Post
    There is no absolute proof of anything, so how do we know?

    But of course i know, because i take shaolin do!

    Anyway, (okinawa) Karate is derived from White Crane.
    I once saw a Sensei in Ishin Ryu(mix of sports and traditional karate)perform a form for me and my brother. And i recognized some of the techniques.

    But i can see that the late grandmasters didn't tell everything to the japanese.
    Some techniques they performed in their form are just plain "wrong" according to my teacher.

  13. #5878
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Whip View Post
    Some of you may never have seen any of our art done by reasonably skilled people. I just found these clips on Master Grooms' YouTube Channel. Maybe I'm wrong, but broadsword, drunken, and 3-sectional sound Chinese to me. The 3-sectional is just a guy with a few years training doing some spins. The other two forms can be found elsewhere in the world of CMA.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk
    The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen. The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

    JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 06-28-2007 at 06:24 AM.

  14. #5879
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen.

    JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.
    I would have to agree.
    It just seems like its "karate-like kung fu".

    Even Shoriniji Kempo is more "kung fu like" than that.

    Wither you use Gi's of Japanese "terminology" matters very little to me, but it just doesn't look like any Shaolin-based forms I ahve seen.

  15. #5880
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I would have to agree.
    It just seems like its "karate-like kung fu".

    Even Shoriniji Kempo is more "kung fu like" than that.

    Wither you use Gi's of Japanese "terminology" matters very little to me, but it just doesn't look like any Shaolin-based forms I ahve seen.

    Okay this looks well uhm... not bad or something but indeed it looks like karate or kempo people trying to imitate modern wushu forms.
    It does not look like anything i've been tought and my master went to the same place and in the same period as your grand master did.
    Please don't take this as bashing or flaming or anything.
    I'm curious do you have a monkeyform you could post here.(a non acrobatic and non show version please)you may also send me a private message.
    How about Wookiestyle?
    With this style you can pull people's arms out of their sockets if you loose.
    That would remind them to change there strategy, and let you win.

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