View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #6031
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    According to my SD instructor, the internal styles were taught within the system only when Master Eric started learning taiji/bagua and began to dominate the sparring sessions within the SD school...

    I first learned Tai Chi 64 & Classical Pakua in 1975...I know EMLeonard & EMSmith had it a lot earlier.......MSmith decided he like Tai Chi best and decided to Master it along with sparring tech. #1(not short kata 1).....he got his butt handed to him for about 3 years...then he started to dominate sparring.....EML's thing is Pakua (don't think for one second his Tai Chi is lacking...it's not!!) For the first 10 to 15 years GMS didn't teach a lot of forms....mainly conditioning, sparring, & applications...as his core group got older he begain to introduce more and more forms......the internal side begain to grow as a part of this. Since there's a lot of us who only wish to study the internal arts, GMS decided in the 90's to start an Internal side & most schools have excellent programs. Also Tai Chi 64 or the CMC form has been around for years & is very popular in Taiwan & is called 64 by some schools (this is according to my ex Chinese girlfriend who's boyfriend before me was a tai chi master) Tai Chi 24 & Chen Tai Chi fan were brought back from Indonesia in the late 80's early 90's from one of GMS's collegues this is common knowledge I also have a book published in china that has our Yang 2 edge sword form move for move......it was taught to us way before the book was published. These are forms that most CMA schools have. This only solidify's SD.
    BQ
    Last edited by Baqualin; 07-05-2007 at 09:41 AM.

  2. #6032
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    Not that long ago, the SD system began an 'internal style' advancement track that culminated in the awarding of a black sash. It covered numerous forms in Xingyi, Bagua, and Taiji. I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades...

    Most all internal schools teach Tai Chi, Pakua, & Hsing I......most of the External CMA schools also teach one or two of the three or all just like us. Check out the web sites. Our internal classes go into great detail...we have a 5th master come in once a week, he teaches 5 animal frolic's, applications & self defense....it's not just about forms.
    BQ

  3. #6033
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    I've been doing some video comparisons between SD's version of Jiang Baguazhang and Chen Taiji with some other demonstrations of those same forms by Luo Jinhua and Ren Guangyi. The differences in technique are astounding, with subtleties in body mechanics and positioning that are not found in our versions of those forms.

    Have you seen people from the SD Internal side do these forms?
    GMS is a fan of Ren Guangyi...we watch chen videos one night for about 3 hrs.
    Most of the people he watched, he called pu$$ies....I showed him Ren Guangyi and his eyes lit up & he said, thats more like us...thats the way it (chen) should be done....proper biomechanics & power generation.
    BQ

  4. #6034
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    Hey JP & Bruce....keep up the good work......chain whip welcome to the machine...I really like your post

  5. #6035
    "I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades"

    I guess I have been wrong that there are no objective thinkers in SD. It's just as disingenuous to achieve a black sash in shaolin based on a little of this form from one style and a little of that form from a different style.

    In Hung Ga for instance there are 4 "pillars" and a few other forms that make up the style. In Wing Chun there are 3 core hand forms. In Chan family Choy Li Fut one must learn roughly 1/5th of the 200 or so forms to achieve sifu level.

    So taking the Tiger Crane form from Hung Ga and the Siu Lim Tao form from Wing Chun and the Siu Sup Ji Kuen form from Choy Li Fut and then saying that one is a black sash in Shaolin is terribly innacurate!

  6. #6036
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    It's only inaccurate if you're claiming to be a "black sash" in all those styles. Different lineages and families have different forms. If your style is comprised of each of the forms listed, then you can have a "black sash" when you know all those forms, no matter what position those forms hold for other families or systems.

    Of course, I don't really like ranks in the first place, and if it were my own style, I wouldn't bother with them anyways. But, objectively speaking, a rank is only relative to the school in which it is given. The founder of the school or the style can set whatever criteria he wants and lable the ranks in any way he wants, it really means nothing to anyone outside that style. And he can call his school whatever he wants, too (though some names might upset others who also claim that name as their own, like shaolin).

    People's issues come with the inaccurate cultural perception of ours that a black belt, no matter what school you're in, means you are an expert of all martial arts. Anyone who actually trains in martial arts comes to realize the error of this perception eventually. We all know that having a black belt, or whatever rank, doesn't mean anything, and you can't use it to compare to martial artists of other schools. The only important thing is how much time and effort you put into training.

    The only thing that might be upsetting about all this is how some folks use their rank as a way to trick the public who are ignorant of martial arts practice. The first thing they ask is "what belt do you have?", no matter what style you say you practice. An unfortunate consequence of our culture's early and prolonged exposure to nothing but Japanese martial arts and their grading system. When you say "I'm a black belt", they say "oh, you must be good!"...whether you have two years of total martial arts experience, or five or ten or twenty years.
    This is why I prefer not to use ranks at all. Just practice.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  7. #6037
    Quote Originally Posted by Erasmus Mingatt View Post
    "I thought it somewhat disengenuous that one would be able to get a 'black sash' in internal martial arts when there are people that have studied just ONE of those internal systems for decades"

    I guess I have been wrong that there are no objective thinkers in SD. It's just as disingenuous to achieve a black sash in shaolin based on a little of this form from one style and a little of that form from a different style.
    saying that one is a black sash in Shaolin is terribly innacurate!
    i think leto addressed this nicely ...

    for example
    in our system a black belt/sash mean you have learned and can perform the basics of what ever forms are in the system up to that rank. it says nothing of being an expert. it in my opinion is a organizational tool that can and has been misused and misunderstood. i have mixed feelings about the whole rank thing but it is part of the system i choose to practice. as far as the "time line" goes i should be a 4th or 5th black now but i am a 2nd. that has nothing to do with my skill or understanding of the material presented to me.

    i am not in a race to get to the next rank. if a student is that is their choice even if they are being pressured to advance by their peers or teachers.

    the other side of that coin is you might not want to take toooooo long before learning the next thing since part of our training involves always learning new things while refining a few things we want to excel at.

    as ugly of an idea as it may be to some, many people make their living from selling martial arts.

    another example:
    in bjj a black belt often mean you have beaten all the brown belts in your school using the techniques specific to their art and are starting to beat some of the black belts who out rank you. the belt system is used in an very different way.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  8. #6038
    Can't believe this thread has gone on for 362 pages...

    *tip of the hat to Judge Pen* Sorry to hear about your father in law. I know how hard it can be to deal with a serious illness in the family. Hope your wife is holding up OK...

    Leto, I agree with your post about belt rankings. Before I joined up with SD, I was in a taiji class that didn't use belts. You knew who was good by observing them, sparring with them, and doing push hands with them.

    Bagualin... good to have someone who has some perspective on the earlier days of SD. One of my acquaintances whom I respect highly, joined up with SD in 1973 and stayed long enough to earn a brown belt before doing other things with the internal arts. He is now concentrating almost completely on Chen Taiji from the Chen XiaoWang lineage. When I mentioned to him about the internal forms in SD, he expressed surprise, as at the time he was in it, he never encountered any SD internal forms. He must have left just prior to the material being taught.

    My anecdote regarding EM Smith and his seminar on Short Kata #1 (and yes, it was SK1... I checked) was merely to point out the depth of material that SD might be missing in its emphasis on hundreds of forms. I have indeed seen SD internal stylists at work. My instructor really gravitated towards the internal forms, and I was impressed enough with his skills that I stayed for 8 years despite my misgivings (which says a lot about his abilities!). I've also observed some of the other internal stylists doing performances during the tournaments. I have to admit, I wasn't highly impressed, but there is only so much one can gain merely by observing from the stands or by watching video. If I ever get back down to an SD tournament, perhaps I'll have to do some cross-hands with them!

    BTW, any idea what the author and title is of that book on the Yang Taiji Jian form? I'd be interested in checking it out. I performed that sword form for a visitor from China who was well versed in Yang and Chen Taiji. He had it pegged as a form from Taiwan, but we had to leave before I could get more information...

  9. #6039
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    Actually, uhm on most old photo's from indonesia nobody wears a gi. Just a t-shirt and loose pants and chinese shoes most of the time.
    My master was there in i think 1963. That's what it says on the photo. Each photo has a year written on the back.
    And well my master uses a mixture of just plain Dutch, Chinese and Indonesian terms.
    For instance he does not use the word Kata but Jurus. You can find Jurus in Kun-Tao. According to my sources it is a Indonesian word. Kun-Tao was the kung fu version for the Indonesians and foreigners.
    But most of the time it is: Hit the throat, kick the groin. Break the arm. Instead of "mantis catches fly" or "monkey scratches his arse"(joking!)
    Ah well. The school was there long before 65'.
    So it would explain the usage of japanese and indonesian terms way before that.
    Why they declared it legal again? The dutch left indonesia i believe somewhere short after WWII. Indonesia then was run by Indonesians and they did not think highly of foreigners(can't blaim 'm, even now Dutch soldiers are blamed for raping and killing, we had no clean hands in it.)But in the end, a government has to loosen up for economic and trading. And let's face it. Chinese are the best traders in the world. They're everywhere and thriving!
    How about Wookiestyle?
    With this style you can pull people's arms out of their sockets if you loose.
    That would remind them to change there strategy, and let you win.

  10. #6040
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    Nope, haven't had a chance to review these.

    But it would certainly be of use to look at Sin The' doing Northern Mantis and looking at actual NPM. This is the root of your style, and while in enviable shape, he demonstrates absolutely no understanding of NPM. )I know, 'it was just a demo of some kung fu moves.' - but if you clam this system, shouldn't you be able to perform it, even 'goofing around.' Which is also odd, since you would think you would want to show the world your skills in a promo, not show something half-@ssed.

    So many questions... none of which would exist if Sin The' didn't spread SD with dishonesty. I'm not sure what else to call it.
    www.kungnation.com

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  11. #6041
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteEarp View Post
    Actually, uhm on most old photo's from indonesia nobody wears a gi. Just a t-shirt and loose pants and chinese shoes most of the time.
    My master was there in i think 1963. That's what it says on the photo. Each photo has a year written on the back.
    And well my master uses a mixture of just plain Dutch, Chinese and Indonesian terms.
    For instance he does not use the word Kata but Jurus. You can find Jurus in Kun-Tao. According to my sources it is a Indonesian word. Kun-Tao was the kung fu version for the Indonesians and foreigners.
    But most of the time it is: Hit the throat, kick the groin. Break the arm. Instead of "mantis catches fly" or "monkey scratches his arse"(joking!)
    Ah well. The school was there long before 65'.
    So it would explain the usage of japanese and indonesian terms way before that.
    Why they declared it legal again? The dutch left indonesia i believe somewhere short after WWII. Indonesia then was run by Indonesians and they did not think highly of foreigners(can't blaim 'm, even now Dutch soldiers are blamed for raping and killing, we had no clean hands in it.)But in the end, a government has to loosen up for economic and trading. And let's face it. Chinese are the best traders in the world. They're everywhere and thriving!

    Hey White Earp,

    Have you had the chance to collect any more photos that might show your teacher with Ie or Hiang?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  12. #6042
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    Quote Originally Posted by arinathos.valin View Post
    Can't believe this thread has gone on for 362 pages...


    BTW, any idea what the author and title is of that book on the Yang Taiji Jian form? I'd be interested in checking it out. I performed that sword form for a visitor from China who was well versed in Yang and Chen Taiji. He had it pegged as a form from Taiwan, but we had to leave before I could get more information...
    Sure...T'ai-chi Swordplay / Eight-diagram Palm
    Chinese Martial Arts Series 2
    Shing Yen-Ling
    Published by Sugawara Martial Arts Institute, Inc
    out of Japan...first printing 1992

    I help teach the internal classes & I'm very serious about it & so are most of our students...there's even a couple of 50+ Tai Chi Ladies that go to the external sparing classes. Feel free to stop by our school anytime to see what we're doing now...we love to touch hands...it's the only way to learn....some internal students also do Iron Bone training........breathing & mediation is also part of the program. I hear you on the demo's but most in the system are normal working people who look at SD as a hobby & a good non boring work out.....as you stated you can tell who is serious & who's not....come see us were good people....if your in Atlanta I'm sure Shaolindo school would love to touch hands too

  13. #6043
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    My anecdote regarding EM Smith and his seminar on Short Kata #1 (and yes, it was SK1... I checked) was merely to point out the depth of material that SD might be missing in its emphasis on hundreds of forms.

    My mistake...he also did a seminar on sparring tech. #1....which he has, mastered.
    Yes we have all these forms, why not teach them, what's the big deal, that's how I found out I love the internal, also by studing the external for all those years gave me the foundation I needed for Pakua & Hsing I....I know by research the old Pakua Masters required their students to take a couple of years of Shaolin type arts before they would teach them Pakua.... now I know what I want and can focus on this part of SD for the rest of my life.
    BQ

  14. #6044
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc

    for anyone interested here is a clip of me practicing beng chuan form as i understand it. this is another example of a part of shaolin do "on video".

    best,

    bruce
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  15. #6045
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaolindoiscool View Post
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=8x6er4aobuc

    for anyone interested here is a clip of me practicing beng chuan form as i understand it. this is another example of a part of shaolin do "on video".

    best,

    bruce

    I always like seeing your videos. Thanks for sharing.

    It's a bit different from the way that I do it (as is your linkage set), but good stuff nonetheless. Different doesn't mean better, btw. It would be interesting to compare the two one day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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