Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Mas Judt]

Historically, there has been great secrecy in CMA circles, with loyalty to your group being paramount. The extremes of this was usually found Southern China, where various 'sects' often had political and criminal agendas.

Cross training was common among some, but not all MA groups.

Secrecy also became a big deal with teachers looking to make money teaching, or to hide the fact that they actually did not know what they claimed.

In today's world, there is so much information floating so freely, and a great many myths have been put to rest.

Things can be much more open. Take advantage of it. If it upsets your teachers, ask them why it upsets them. Try to understand where they are coming from, then decide for yourself what you want to do.

Oh, and Shaolin Wookie, you shouldn't have come over all sloppy drunk like that, it was embarrasing, and I don't swing that way.

[Lamassu]

Historically, there has been great secrecy in CMA circles, with loyalty to your group being paramount. The extremes of this was usually found Southern China, where various 'sects' often had political and criminal agendas.

In today's world, there is so much information floating so freely, and a great many myths have been put to rest.

Things can be much more open. Take advantage of it. If it upsets your teachers, ask them why it upsets them. Try to understand where they are coming from, then decide for yourself what you want to do.

I couldn't agree more, like I posted earlier, we're not in China during the Opium Wars, and considering that only about 5% of the United States practice ANY martial art, I don't think there's any real danger to not keeping these so called "secrets" from the public. If anything, it's more likely to encourage new students to join.

What I've noticed (based on movies, books and the internet), was that these various schools competing with each other back in the day, were fighting for their very survival (territory, revenue, amenites from local shops, etc.), kinda like gangs are today in the U.S. Modern schools don't need to worry about that, we can buy our own food, shelter our own family and take care of ourselves outside the kwoon, so now whichever kwoon we go to for training, it's akin to going to a Crunch gym or the YMCA to work out. No need for secrets.

[Mas Judt]

Yep. My Shuai Chiao teacher was often told he was 'too open' and 'taught too much' (We're talking the 80's here) - but his feeling was only a few would really train and get it anyhow.

I do not begrudge anyone privacy, if they so choose, but I don't like folks who try to control your association with others.

[Lamassu]

Yep. My Shuai Chiao teacher was often told he was 'too open' and 'taught too much' (We're talking the 80's here) - but his feeling was only a few would really train and get it anyhow.

I do not begrudge anyone privacy, if they so choose, but I don't like folks who try to control your association with others.

One thing that always bugged me, is there are no SD forms being demonstrated on youtube (except for a couple here and there). I think that's ridiculous because the fear is "well somebody can watch the video and then learn that form", and I'm like really? Maybe it's just me but when I'm in front of my computer, I don't have a lot of room to jump around and there's no way in hell anyone can actually learn a form that's being shown as a demonstration. If that were the case then who needs kwoons, I'll just pick up a copy of "Shaolin: Wheel of Life" and through osmosis become the greatest shaolin monk in the world! No seriously, watching SD forms demonstrated on youtube would be motivating to the students, enticing to potential students, and evidence that we can really do stuff. Personally, I think SD is missing out by not posting more kung fu forms (shaolindoiscool and M. Grooms have tai chi covered )on the net.

[WhiteEarp]

Hi guys,

Been awhile. But i'm back. I'm happy to anounce that my master wanted some videos on youtube, more are still to come. But this one shows how kung fu looks like no karate movements or fancy high kicks.(sorry that the video is on his side, still figuring that part out)
This is my teacher and he was taught at bandung.
Please tell me what you think!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABj78...eature=related

[WhiteEarp]

O and another one with a student showing a piece of our long form.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hfohs...eature=related

[Mas Judt]

One thing that always bugged me, is there are no SD forms being demonstrated on youtube (except for a couple here and there). I think that's ridiculous because the fear is "well somebody can watch the video and then learn that form"

Well, that does happen a great deal. The other school that teaches a million styles, Green Dragon (ohio) was famous for that. The end result is White Eyebrow and Baji that is just weird.

[Lamassu]

Well, that does happen a great deal. The other school that teaches a million styles, Green Dragon (ohio) was famous for that. The end result is White Eyebrow and Baji that is just weird.

Feh. Well, whichever kwoon I join next year, they shouldn't have a problem of me taping a demonstration of the forms I learn. I've seen plenty of Shaolin temple demonstrations as well as choy lay fut on youtube, so that'll be good.

[sean_stonehart]

Feh. Well, whichever kwoon I join next year, they shouldn't have a problem of me taping a demonstration of the forms I learn. I've seen plenty of Shaolin temple demonstrations as well as choy lay fut on youtube, so that'll be good.

I wouldn't rush into taping & posting to Youtube or the like. You've been doing SD for a while. You're going to still move like it for a while. If you're videoing for your own reference, way cool.

All you'll look like is somebody from SD doing a form from another style that's still not quite right. Get solid practice time in first. Then post it up.

[BentMonk]

I still don't get the "not quite right" or "lacking TCMA flavor" comments that get tossed around. It seems like a cop out to avoid having to admit that SD doesn't suck quite as bad as some say it does. There has IMO, been enough recent evidence posted on this thread to qualify SD as a MA with Shaolin or at least TCMA roots. I think the biggest flaw with SD is the number of new black belts that rush out and open a school. There is no way that they have enough of a grasp on the material they've learned to teach it effectively. We all know where instruction with shaky foundations leads. Now, some smart ass is going to say that the shaky foundation starts with GM Sin. Anyone who has seen more of GM Sin than a 30 second cliip knows how ridiculous that statement would be. The "my style is better than your style" banter has been around as long as MA. It's the plot of most kung fu movies. It's just gotten bigger and more redundant thanks to the Internet. It's a pleasant distraction that can sometimes lead to mutual understanding, and the occasional friendship. It's not good for much beyond that. SD is no different than any other large MA organization. There's awesome, not so awesome, mediocre, and bad. As to the "outrageous claims made by GM Sin", it's marketing. Why be outraged? I don't see anyone from the temple in Hunan devoting 500 plus pages of discussion to denouncing SD. If anyone had a right to be offended by SD's claims it would be them. The rest of us are just a bunch of round eyes doing Westernized versions of TCMA. Yeah, yeah, I know, so and so is Chinese and has a lineage that can be traced back to so and so, blah, blah, blah. Those folks are few and the ones whose history and lineage stand up to genuine scrutiny are even fewer. So that leaves us American kung fu junkies getting our fix from wherever we can. I know what TCMA looks like, moves like, works like, and the principals it is based on. It's all in SD, even if it's not demonstrated by all SD students. I've used my SD training in open tournaments and one full contact match. I did quite well. These two facts, not "the kool aid" are what drives me to continue practicing SD, defending SD, and taking pride in being a student of SD. End of rant. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

[Mas Judt]

Bentmonk,

Here are some thoughts:

1.) I for one, am certain that SD is a CMA/JMA hybrid from Indonesia. This is not an uncommon occurence there.

2.) There are things in SD that look like some CMA that has been in Indonesia for a while.

3.) Most of the Indonesian CMA types I have known are full of wild stories. On of my Silat teachers always wanted to meet Sin The', as HE thinks Sin The' really believes he's the 'Shaolin Grandmaster.' Whether true or not, he loves the crazy stories.

4.) CMA 'flavor' - different systems exhibit certain body methods. I've purposely not given examples specifically of what I've meant, as SD does not exhibit them, and why show you something you think you already have. This is particularly apparent in some of the 'systems' SD claims to teach, like Praying Mantis or Xing Yi.

5.) SD certainly has a flavor. It is very similar to another JMA/CMA hybrid I have seen.

6.) The SD I have seen so far (A school in Vegas in the early 90's, I think) practiced a kind of one-step sparring with a 'flavor' that was very JMA. A guy I met at a party in California, late 90's, was in great shape, but again did not represent CMA very well.

7.) 'It's called marketing' - no, it's not. It's called fraud when you promise one thing and deliver another.

I've known a few folks online who left SD. Often after considerable time. Their reasons were almost always the same.

For the most part - every single demonstration of SD has been sad to be 'not the best' or 'not up to standard' or 'just fooling around.' Kind of strange really. It might explain the desire NOT to post stuff on YouTube.

The exception to this is Bruce, who actively seeks comments from other players from other schools.

Surely Sin The' could show his Mantis or Xing-yi and be recognized for doing it well - if he WAS the 'the one Shaolin grandmaster in the world' - as he advertises.

Finally, it could very well be that there is something worthwhile within SD. Maybe you are all correct, and none of the stories are EXACTLY true, none of the demonstrations are 'good', but there are some skilled people nontheless.

[tattooedmonk]

Bentmonk,

Here are some thoughts:

1.) I for one, am certain that SD is a CMA/JMA hybrid from Indonesia. This is not an uncommon occurence there.

2.) There are things in SD that look like some CMA that has been in Indonesia for a while.

3.) Most of the Indonesian CMA types I have known are full of wild stories. On of my Silat teachers always wanted to meet Sin The', as HE thinks Sin The' really believes he's the 'Shaolin Grandmaster.' Whether true or not, he loves the crazy stories.

4.) CMA 'flavor' - different systems exhibit certain body methods. I've purposely not given examples specifically of what I've meant, as SD does not exhibit them, and why show you something you think you already have. This is particularly apparent in some of the 'systems' SD claims to teach, like Praying Mantis or Xing Yi.

5.) SD certainly has a flavor. It is very similar to another JMA/CMA hybrid I have seen.

6.) The SD I have seen so far (A school in Vegas in the early 90's, I think) practiced a kind of one-step sparring with a 'flavor' that was very JMA. A guy I met at a party in California, late 90's, was in great shape, but again did not represent CMA very well.

7.) 'It's called marketing' - no, it's not. It's called fraud when you promise one thing and deliver another.

I've known a few folks online who left SD. Often after considerable time. Their reasons were almost always the same.

For the most part - every single demonstration of SD has been sad to be 'not the best' or 'not up to standard' or 'just fooling around.' Kind of strange really. It might explain the desire NOT to post stuff on YouTube.

The exception to this is Bruce, who actively seeks comments from other players from other schools.

Surely Sin The' could show his Mantis or Xing-yi and be recognized for doing it well - if he WAS the 'the one Shaolin grandmaster in the world' - as he advertises.

Finally, it could very well be that there is something worthwhile within SD. Maybe you are all correct, and none of the stories are EXACTLY true, none of the demonstrations are 'good', but there are some skilled people nontheless.

#1 It is obviously a hybrid system. So what?? If you are going to say that it should be advertized as such I would say that it already is, just not using those words?

#2 Keywords "SD looks like other CMA that I have seen in Indonesia. " meaning what?/ Do you think that it being in Indonesia has something to do with the fact that it does not look like CMA that comes directly form Main Land China Hong Kong or Taiwan?? Especially if Chinese were viewed in a negative light at that time??

#4 I would like to know specifically what you mean.

#7 What is he not delivering?? The forms and material is from Chinese origins . whether it passed through other Asian countries first does not matter.

'the one Shaolin grandmaster in the world' - as he advertises
Where does he say this?/ I think that this is being taken too literally . He is the only Grandmaster of Shaolin-do.

People have this funny idea of what CMA should look like based on the way it has been taught and practiced in China for the last 100 years or so, which is demilitarized movements that lack any martial intent. It is no wonder it does not work in a fight.

With whom did you meet in LV and Cali?? and how many actual people do you know who have left SD for the same reasons, whatever that may be?? I mean really. If you know 5 or 10 that is what percentage of those who still practice SD??

[kwaichang]

Sd is not CMA/ JMA mix there is no JMA in it the physical properties of Sd are not JMA. However I will say that a persons Physical capabilities have alot to do with the way a style looks , also their physical personality as well, this may have something to do with how Sd looks. I have seen HARD JMA that looks soft due to the practioners weakness, of spirit or body. To say a martial art isnt what it is due to how it looks is like saying a car cant run because it is painted green.
No one can say that what they do is pure. All things and arts are influenced to some degree by these things. SD is CMA period end of subject. KC
Can we move on now????

[Mas Judt]

People have this funny idea of what CMA should look like based on the way it has been taught and practiced in China for the last 100 years or so, which is demilitarized movements that lack any martial intent. It is no wonder it does not work in a fight.

ROFL! You just made me spit out my coffee.

I'll get back to this later, got a busy day.

Just promise me one thing - keep believing this, it is really, really funny.

One last thing - how do you use words that say ONE thing, then claim it actually says another 'it's just said differently?' Kinda retarded.

I quote Sin The' from the SD Association website;
"Grandmaster Sin realized that the world had plenty of engineers and scientists, but only one Shaolin Grandmaster."

Now which part is he NOT claiming to be the 'one Shaolin Grandmaster?'

You guys kill me.

[Mas Judt]

Sd is not CMA/ JMA mix there is no JMA in it the physical properties of Sd are not JMA. However I will say that a persons Physical capabilities have alot to do with the way a style looks , also their physical personality as well, this may have something to do with how Sd looks. I have seen HARD JMA that looks soft due to the practioners weakness, of spirit or body. To say a martial art isnt what it is due to how it looks is like saying a car cant run because it is painted green.
No one can say that what they do is pure. All things and arts are influenced to some degree by these things. SD is CMA period end of subject. KC

KC,
You make some good points here, I'll grant you that. However, with what i have seen to date, and what I know of the scene in Indonesia, I'll stick to my assesment until I see something that shows otherwise.