View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #19831
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    Blissed Out Chi Bunny

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    How is all good I hope any new news?
    Well....Well...Well... So, I made into this epic thread! Gather around the campfire, for I have a tale to tell. I am, the nice "Shaolin Do" teacher in San Francisco as mentioned above. I have been teaching professionally in SF for 5 years now. This should get interesting, because I am not sure who hates me more, the CSC's? Or, the usual Shaolin Do haters? But, lets get a few facts straight here people. First, I am a FORMER teacher of the CSC's, I left and was thrown into legal threats. Second, I am not from Shaolin Do, I originally came from the Denver CSC (although, they are both horrible in my view), but may as well straighten that out now since there are some differences. And third, hskwarrior has every right to be questioning Jake and SD on the form; and on top of it, hes a great guy! For the record to the SD people, I have hardly met anyone from Shaolin Do on the east coast/south; but, I will say that Master Gary Mullins and Master John Keller are ABSOLUTE inspirations, and great martial artists that I would never want to cross. I have yet to meet a sifu or master from any style that can hold themselves to Gary Mullins standard, especially in consideration of age. The man is a beast in his training, and a true professional. My hat is tipped. I wish I lived closer so I could train with him more...Gotta give credit, where credit is due.

    I will give you some background, and then my insiders opinion on all of this, and also hopefully clear up this ridiculous thread. For those that just want to see if I actually opened up a spar session, you have to read the rest to get to the good stuff. On top of it, I actually have gone out and tested some these other more 'traditional' arts, and found some interesting things both good and bad...On the big thread topics, YES I know, and have trained with Jake; I was there through the whole decision on the lawsuit; I trained directly under the Soards, and I even sat in the courtroom for David's hearing.

    Now, for you quiet lurkers on the west coast (Denver to California) (and yes, I know you quietly watch this thread), if you have been within the CSC's over the last 10 years; you know me. I have likely visited your school, trained, sparred or travelled with you at some point before you stopped being my friend for leaving. For those that do not know me, I found the CSC in Denver while attending college, began training, eventually started assisting, and finally teaching when I moved to SF.

    I had zero money when I came to SF. So, I started in Sutro Heights park where I had a few students, and then immediately started renting a multi-purpose wellness center a few nights on the border of Chinatown where I managed to get more students. That space was ran by another Sifu from Tat Wong's school, and eventually they went out of business. I was able to secure a full-time commercial space across the street with the Kwan Family, in conjunction with the local Kwang Kung Temple directly above us. And NO, it was not money based. They told me NO for 4 months straight, until I finally had a translator. We sat down for dumplings, talked at length with the entire family, and were finally accepted to lease. This will likely mean nothing to most of you, but for hskwarrior and anyone from Chinatown SF; you KNOW that feeling when you are accepted into this community, it was a big deal for me. Now, dont get all huffy, call me a McDojo and think I am raking in millions on the good name of kung fu... I make ZERO money, I dont teach kids, and do not participate in tournaments. Any money goes directly back into the school, and I run it as a co-op. Anyways, this is about the time when it all changed for me. Enter...The lawsuit.

    I was unhappy with the training from the CSC's, at higher-levels...It just got bad for me. Nothing but more form's/choreography, story time and half-truth's. I would spend hundreds to travel and train, only to be entirely under-whelmed. On top of it, the business model was bad, the overall quality and martial ability had declined, and there was a culty feel. I decided to leave... Along with a few others and all of us were promptly served with a cease/desist letter and threat of an impending law-suit which just dragged out over a year, costing money, time and lost old-friends.

    During this time, I felt so burned; I was on a mission to learn the "real stuff". I tried (and still do) to train with as many high-level (sifu level+) in any art possible. My interest was in internal, so I went to NYC and spent a few days with William CC Chen, Gordon Feng (Zheng Man Qing), (Fu Zhong Wen Disciple), met with Marilyn Cooper, Ben Lo disciples (Zheng Man Qing), Hung Gar Sifu's, and a TON of park-meet ups for sparring and push hands (bay area offers a lot of push hands meet-ups), and I train Russian Systema on the Alameda Naval Base when I can. My friend, a teacher who was also sued from the CSC's; took to Waysun Liao, Richard Clear, and a few others. Personally, I stuck with a senior Ben Lo teacher (name not important) for Taiji, and mostly focused on Xing Yi for the last 2-3 years. Anyway, Here is what I found:

    Shaolin Do's internal is totally amatuer and wrong in my opinion, completely off on almost every level. I am not just talking choreography, but the intent, energy, reason for the movements (not applications), lack of translation and understanding of terms, posture and missed understanding of principles and practice... Ugh. It was starting from ground zero, and I ate bitter the first time I pushed with William Chen's students. There is another former Shaolin Do teacher here in the bay area that is a closed door student with Jerry Alan Johnson for Bagua, and found the same analysis. The Yang 37 form SD has, is obviously a stripped down version taken from Zheng Man Qing, without a doubt. Whether Master Sin actually learned it somewhere... I will never know, but it certainly was not in Indonesia considering the timing of Zheng Man Qing and his students; plus, there are major errors all over their version of the form in consideration to the original intent.

    Shaolin Do's external material, not bad! I would say the conditioning level and material itself held stronger than most when confronted in sparring against other senior level people. Even some of those hard-core traditionalists seemed impressed... After a brief demo, or trade of hands; I would tell my experience and they would say "NO! You do kung fu! Jake Mace doesn't"! But Alas, we came from the same beginning! BUT, as I always say, it really does come down to the student. I stand by the lower material (I even said it hskwarrior!), the beginning years (white-2nd black) has GOOD material, if you train it right. Past that is when it gets sketchy for me...

    Master Sin learned Chinese Martial Arts while in Indonesia, it may be colored with other influences; but we all know there were Chinese Masters present at his school. The material everyone blames him for 'creating', is actual longer material he had cut-down from longer forms to make the lower belts more graspable to beginners, and from a teachers perspective; thats fine. He cut out the repetitions and made it more efficient. Zheng Man Qing did the exact same thing with the original Yang Family Form. If he actually created that stuff from thin-air, then he is a genius. Past 2nd black, when there are random system forms thrown in for testing...That is where I lose all interest, and have no clue where they came from.

    Now, for the Choy Li Fut/5 Animal form. That **** belongs to the Choy Li Fut system, Lau Bun lineage, and should really only be taught by them and Doc Fai Wong. The version SD has is a PUBLIC version, there are postures and intentions removed, and they can tell because it is THEIR form/system. This is a common in tactic in CMA? Why is everyone surprised? Just like any Ben Lo student would say the same thing about SD's version of the 37 Yang Form! I have talked to hsk nd Sifu Kuttel (Doc Fai Wong) about this until I just wanted to shoot myself. SD and Jake, you have a public version of ONE Choy Li Fut form... It does not mean you know the entire system, or own that form; just like the 37 Yang, and a host of others. When I first met my current Taiji/Xing Yi teacher, he said, well... You have A version, but its not THE version for Zheng Taiji and Hebei Xing Yi; before giving a complete explanation of why it matters and then making me feel like a total beginner again. Same with Tiger/Crane...That is an obscure village version; nothing close to the Hung Gar Tiger/Crane from Wong Fei Hung as known today, and again... It is only ONE form, claiming you know Hung Gar would be absurd.

    CONTINUED......>
    Last edited by ShaolinDough; 10-31-2014 at 05:19 PM.

  2. #19832
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    Blissed Out Chi Bunny 2

    Jake Mace... Where do I begin? It seems every kung fu person hates him; yet no one will actually go meet him in person to push/spar. In my experience, Jake is EXACTLY like how he is on camera. A blissed out little chi bunny! He is a super nice guy, not a fighter, and better conditioned than most. Thats it. He got burned by the whole system as well, and decided to do things his way to try and make a living after going bankrupt with legal fees. He rebounded in a major way, but clearly has lost some integrity from the martial arts world. I know... I know... I feel the same way as all of you; but I just care way, way, less. I have nothing against the guy aside from not liking the cheesy, and wrong videos he posts.

    Me, ah! Thanks for inquiring. I am OK! I train with my super secret Ben Lo senior student in Xing Yi primarily now, and enjoy Systema. I hold a monthly friendly open mat/spar/push at my school, and all are welcome, yet only a few actually show up (yes, I invited hskwarrior? Why is that a big deal?). Although I train with specific teachers, I claim NO lineage (although I give respect where it is due). Otherwise, lineage can be a pair of handcuffs in most cases, and in most ways. Master Sin? I respect him, but I think he has lost his way a few times... We are on good terms and I support him. My school? I still use some SD curriculum, but it has changed so much with other training. Uniforms? Two people in 5 years of SF Chinatown training have given me **** for the gi: hskwarrior, and Al Lai (from Brendan Lai). BUT, I hear you... Changes are on the way my friends, it just takes time and money. Be water and such.

    I respect hskwarrior for what he and his lineage do, I like the way they keep it real and represent the hometown. I could care less about lineage, but I do enjoy the brotherhood of like minded martial artists that are doing their part to keep kung fu from becoming a kiddie-nickelodeon product, and as long as your common nemesis is wushu, and the fake-monks; then its all good to me. I should mention the culture and people of Chinatown SF...It really is impactful and beautiful, Hung Sing is at the forefront of this community in many ways and that warrants some respect and the right to call out any BS slung against their lineage.

    It feels good be thrown into this historic thread. But, now leave me alone lol. Love and peace everyone!

    -Shaolin Dough
    Last edited by ShaolinDough; 10-31-2014 at 05:20 PM.

  3. #19833
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    Blissed Out Chi Bunny 3

    Why is all my cursing blocked out? Come on Gene! Only REAL kung fu people curse. ****!

  4. #19834
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    it is the way it is!
    I'm pretty sure the only thing tongs do nowadays is make sure Chinese restaurants don't pay out tips to their waiters. - Pazman[/B]

    https://scontent-b-pao.xx.fbcdn.net/...8a&oe=52848D36

  5. #19835
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    Twin Monkeys Raise Their Beaks

    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    it is the way it is!
    Im back logging right now... I have missed much of this! And it is some entertaining stuff! Monkey Beaks is probably the best thing I have heard in a while. Pure gold. HSK, you should copyright it...#MONKEYBEAKS! Jake definitely made that one up himself.

  6. #19836
    Hi shaolindough,

    It seems like we have some parralells in our csc training (I am from atlanta).
    You said focus on tai chi chuan and hsing I, those are 2 things I have spent a bit of time studying.
    Do you have any practice videos of your version of "yang 64" tai chi chuan or hsing I "roads" or "linking forms?
    I am curious how various csc/sd peoples ima has evolved from what was originally taught at csc/sd, my material had changed a lot over the years.


    Here is a video of some recent Hsingi form practice.
    http://youtu.be/POzkFUNLYVY

    And some recent tai chi chuan form practice
    http://youtu.be/7N3pRVikCco
    http://youtu.be/UQNNJabGDbU
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  7. #19837
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    Hi Bruce,

    Nice to meet ya, I dont know anyone from ATL except Sifu Augustin, he came through SF once; and is another really talented martial artists. Out of everyone that has travelled through our school, we always say he was one of the best. Great guy too. Anyhow, I dont have any videos up of myself, but I should have some soon for a 2015 workshop I am doing here in Marin and will share those. For the Taji/Xing Yi, my choreography is nothing that is not already out there from a Guo Yunshen and Zheng lineage, and I defer to any video of Zheng Man Qing or Ben Lo for Taiji who are the real masters to watch for that stuff anyway. Mine will be EXACTLY the same (only not as good). Same with Xing Yi, any Hebei style youtube people out there all have the same choreography, and come up with a million applications, it is just done to death by hundreds of people these days. BUT, it really isn't the choreography the counts for me in these arts anyway. For Xing Yi, the constant reference point to achieve across most major lineages is 'Ming', 'An', and 'Hua" Jing. My CSC experience never even began to talk about this, let alone understand how to train for it. Same with Taiji, and 'Peng', etc. That was the point-of-no return for me. They had no idea what they are talking about. Once I found a teacher that could deep-dive into all of that, and answer questions, all the postures changed to train these very specific expressions, and it all made sense. Every posture is absolutely precision-tuned to train this. After 7 years, there was not even a mention past the catch phrase "Fa Jing", and even that was diluted to..."Just feel the chi man!" And, to HSK's point, they added in this weird relaxed 'shaking' at the end of every posture, physically imitating what they presumed the masters of old were describing.

    But, if you literally practice the principals mentioned; the postures HAVE to change from the CSC version in order to meet the teachings from Yang Lu Tang, Guo Yunshen alone.... No double-weightedness (literally), Sung (relaxed NOT collapsed), The Kua (never even mentioned in my CSC experience), Spine straight, hips tucked, etc. etc. That is why it is so easy for IMA people to take one look at Jake and CSC/SD people and know immediately they only have imitated choreography. I assume its the same regard for other stylists like HSKWarrior's frustration, when they see their forms done with error. Anyways, my original Yang form had a literal 50-50 horse stance in it, same with Bagua, Xing Yi was originally front weighted, etc... It all ended up like poorly done Karate. I believe there push hands version was another stage of complete mis-understanding, but I digress.

    To each there own, but in the IMA world; these little things make a massive difference. In the external/hard method I dont care as much, just choreography, conditioning and application differences; I already gave my kudos to SD/CSC for having a good core curriculum for that (white-1st black). But for IMA, not even close.

    Nice videos, keep up the good work!
    Last edited by ShaolinDough; 11-01-2014 at 05:40 PM.

  8. #19838
    Augie is a cool dude and a fantastic martial artist, I am always inspired by his work ethic.
    He is possibly the best from our atl group and keeps very humble.

    I don't think you can practice tai chi chuan with out understanding peng.

    The kua was never spoken about to me from the csc. I learned about the" inguinal fold" and how it relates to self defense from outside the system.

    Distance, leverage, timing, Spine straight, hips tucked, shoulders relaxed, head straight, chin tucked and transfer of weight etc etc etc were constantly taught but most people did not listen or understand.

    The push hands we learned in atlanta I thought was very good but most people were missing the "engine" they had a car with no power...

    I visited csc Denver in the early 2000's and was very excited to see and feel what they did, I got to compare forms and push hands with a 4th black and several black belts. I was shocked at how bad it was and at how good they thought they were. Lots of delusion and hero worship.

    The engine is what matters not the choreography. The way of developing/using power is missing from csc/sd.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  9. #19839
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    Shaolindough

    I agree with much of what you said. The core material unique to Sin and Hiang is great material. I love it, and practice it everyday. It's practical and great for conditioning.
    I love bagua and tai ji. Of all the people I've met and seen in SD, very few seem to have any understanding of what makes these arts work.
    Sin The' should've stayed with what he knew. I mean, why isn't he teaching his golden snake? Hiang has taught out his Tai Peng system. Instead, he's learning forms from either YouTube or DVDs and charging people over a $100 to learn it from him. I've seen the source material where he got the last 2 drunken immortals and 10,000 lotus blooming.
    It's my opinion he ran out of material learned in Indonesia around 1990. Since then he's been learning from books, VHS, DVDs. The 5 animal form is another example.
    To the SD people out there...your core material is legit. It's unique and very usable. All this new stuff is stolen. Plain and simple.

  10. #19840
    I am not sure Bruce and shaolindough are talking about the same CSC? Just a question.

  11. #19841
    Quote Originally Posted by beng View Post
    I am not sure Bruce and shaolindough are talking about the same CSC? Just a question.
    I was part of csc in atlanta. Shaolindough was part of csc Denver I think.

    What is the question?
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  12. #19842
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    Drunken immortals

    For those that took the last 2 drunken immortals seminars...does this look familiar?
    Even has the chest and back crawls.

    http://youtu.be/iPeY2obWgX4

  13. #19843
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    For those that took the last 2 drunken immortals seminars...does this look familiar?
    Even has the chest and back crawls.

    http://youtu.be/iPeY2obWgX4
    Holy ****, your right. Lol.

  14. #19844
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShaolinDough View Post
    Holy ****, your right. Lol.
    Of course some idiots will say..."see, that proves he's authentic." Lol

  15. #19845
    Quote Originally Posted by brucereiter View Post
    I was part of csc in atlanta. Shaolindough was part of csc Denver I think.

    What is the question?
    I was under the impression that Atlanta and Colorado were two different divisions one being under the swords and the other under Master Grooms and Reid. I may have been mistaken I haven't really been around in a while.

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