Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Citong Shifu]

Cool, Thanks CS....very interesting...looking foward to more. Merry XMAS!!!
BQ

Remember, My post is not and was not the end all or final thought/s on SD. Just another point of view. However, if in fact the Fukien kung fu monks devised these styles / sets for the Okinawan karate master, then they came from Shaolin .

Best of wishes to you and your family. Merry Xmas.
CS

[Citong Shifu]

I'd be curious too. If you could show a link like this, it would be very interesting.

MJ,
Give me time to put together something historically documented. I dont want to fall into the he said / she said thing... As I've mentioned, this analogy was just another way of looking at the differences...

Merry Xmas
CS

[Citong Shifu]

Interesting stuff. This is the first reference I've heard of regarding the bird forms outside of SD. Please let me know what else you find.

JP,
I will. I just need to make sure there's more than one organization that shares said documentation first... As far as I know, there is. Now Its a waiting game, lol... Just waiting for my email replies...

Merry Xmas
CS

[BM2]

Remember, My post is not and was not the end all or final thought/s on SD. CS

Que? I thought that this was going to be the final installment of the saga
Now it's the never ending story

[Shaolin Wookie]

Nope, you got it correct. But you probably are not understanding the contextual meaning.

You might just get the honor of making my sig with this one.

[Mas Judt]

That's an honor?

[humbleman]

some guy from kentucky on our public t.v. station in erie pa. who hosts an excellent bluegrass/folk music show called "woodsongs" that is produced on K.E.T. IOs he perchance an S.D. practicioner? Just wondered, he doesn't have the usual nascar facist attitude.

[Mas Judt]

SD stands against the sport of only turning left?

I may have to buy a gi...

[BM2]

SD stands against the sport of only turning left?

I may have to buy a gi...

That doesn't make it right, but three lefts will.

[BM2]

Originally Posted by Mas Judt
Nope, you got it correct. But you probably are not understanding the contextual meaning.

You might just get the honor of making my sig with this one. Posted by SW.


Taking it in this context, it's really funny.

[Leto]

Our organization refers to this set as San Zan (triple stance / triple battle). I have seen the Sam Chien set and it looks almost identical to my friends San Chin set from Isshinryu karate. I've also seen the Goju set, which looks almost the same..

I dont really care one way or another, but the exact similarities are defining. A while back I was talking to my Sifu about the SD curriculum. I showed him a copy I printed from one of the SD websites that mentioned the bird forms etc,. He looked at the curriculum and acknowledged he was familar with these sets. However, he stated that the bird forms and a few others (which I forgot there names) were created at the Fukien Shaolin Temple explicitedly for the Okinawan karate masters that traveled to Fukien Shaolin to learn kung fu. Historically, this can be backed by documentation of the sets the Okinawan masters learned, which most Traditional Shuri 'Te karate systems have so documented...

Anyway, I have seen some of the SD curriculm that incorporates other Chinese classical kung fu sets.

I bring this up to give some of you guys something to think about, not to start sh!t! I have several emails out to Traditional Okinawan Shuri 'Te schools that are familiar with the Fukien "Bird" forms / sets. Hopefully, I will get some interesting replies and more documentation on this matter...

Just a thought.
CS

I would like to point out that SD's San He Chien is not the same form as Okinawan sanchin kata. It has different hand formations and an "attack" sequence at the end. In it's "shape", it is like the Chinese versions. The way in which it is like the Okinawan kata is that it is used with complete tension, and heavy breathing, and used for body conditioning. I don't know if any other Chinese styles utilize their sanzhan form this way. It is a good workout, and good for strengthening, just different from how this type of form is performed in other styles.

Here is goju ryu sanchin, with body conditioning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5xD2Ph9CPo

uechi ryu sanchin...mostly the same sequence but with open hands http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeHbH8x_Zfo

a white crane sanzhan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtLgfru5PjM

whooping crane sanzhan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLog9TMFfo8

five ancestors sanzhan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yla9j0AangU

Notice on the last one, it's similarities to SD San he Chien
The rising technique, palms facing eachother and wrists bent. The expanding, with palms up. The pushing, with palms out. Then step.

The difference is also obvious, this is performed with explosiveness. contracting and expanding, coiling and releasing. It's outer shape is the most similar, but the expression is different.

As for the "traditional shuri te" having documentation of forms learned in Fukien...I am highly skeptical. In all the research that has been done, no one has yet published or documented a list of sets learned in China by Okinawan masters. If "most traditional shuri te" schools have such knowledge, they have done a great job keeping it secret from everyone, including most Okinawan karateka. I wonder what schools claim to have this. I'm not saying it's impossible...but it is exactly what tons of karate historians have been looking for, and have never been able to produce.
None of the well known schools pass on such knowledge. I suppose it could be hidden in treasured family documents, never given to outsiders. But it certainly doesn't qualify as "well known" or "common knowledge" amongst Okinawan shuri te styles. The actual names of the Chinese kung fu sets which shuri te and other Okinawan styles were based on is sort of a "holy grail".

As for the Chinese creating different sets to teach the Okinawans, I don't doubt as much. It wouldn't be surprising for them to at least keep the "good stuff" away from the foreigners.
As far as Okinawan masters who trained in China, from the well known styles there were only three or four. Higashionna Kanryo of Naha is said to have spent somewhere between ten and twenty years studying in Fukien, and the kata he taught become most of what is goju ryu today. Matsumura Sokon is said to have spent somewhere between 2 and 15 years in China, supposedly traveling all around, possibly even to the Shaolin temple (north or south is not specified, we can only guess southern). Goju Ryu founder Miyagi Chojun also spent a little time in China, learning from the same guy his teacher, Higashionna, learned from. And then there's Uechi Kanbun, who founded the "pangainoon" school after spending several years in China, (later his students name the style after him, Uechi Ryu). These are the most famous ones, the ones whos styles were taught publicly in the 19th and early 20th centuries. There were probably others, but they have not been remembered, or their styles are private.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see evidence from a secondary source of bird forms from fukien. As far as actual physical content (ie, the forms themselves), I'm pretty confident no current public Okinawan karate style has preserved any bird sets. The closest thing is hakutsuru, from the Matsumura Seito lineage, which is supposed to be based on a white crane form.

[BlueTravesty]

Yes I do, But do not take it out of context . You know that the arts were demilitarized a while back and have been modified inside China to teach the masses. Especially any of the ones that went to Hong Kong , Taiwan.

The time-traveling modern wushu conspiracy strikes again!!

[Baqualin]

some guy from kentucky on our public t.v. station in erie pa. who hosts an excellent bluegrass/folk music show called "woodsongs" that is produced on K.E.T. IOs he perchance an S.D. practicioner? Just wondered, he doesn't have the usual nascar facist attitude.

He's not in SD, but Wood Songs is cool...I go a couple of times a month & my girl friend goes every Mon. night.
BQ

[tattooedmonk]

The time-traveling modern wushu conspiracy strikes again!!

....what??

[The Xia]

Yes I do, But do not take it out of context . You know that the arts were demilitarized a while back and have been modified inside China to teach the masses. Especially any of the ones that went to Hong Kong , Taiwan.

Where are you getting this idea from? "Demilitarized"? Not all TCMA are/were used by the military. Mercenaries, bodyguards, peasants, members of secret societies, etc often used TCMA. And why are you insulting Hong Kong and Taiwan lineages? Hong Kong is a well-known haven for TCMA. When many sifus moved to Hong Kong it was a very rough place. Hong Kong has produced some tough-as-nails TCMA fighters. Taiwan also has great TCMA and if you do some research I think you will find plenty of examples showing TCMA put to use there as well. And yes there is tons of contemporary Wushu in China but there is still plenty of TCMA there. Gene has done volumes of work showcasing it.