Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[synack]

shaolindoiscool - Thank you for the post comparisons. Even though I really wanted to see the external styles compared. That gave me what I was looking for but for Internal, still good comparisons.

NJM - As much as my teacher can. They're very good teachers and will always show you the attack/defense behind movements in forms. I can't say that all SD schools are like that... but the CSC school that I go to... they do.

I like the stuff I'm learning and I've never been this flexible in my life. I'm going to make it a point to ignore the lineage (or as some say, lack thereof). And also make it a point not to disrespect another art or their lineage, I think these arguments just get into the "my dad can beat up your dad" crap.

So, I guess what I'm saying is. If you don't like it. Don't join. But I'm going to have fun and if down the road I find something else I like. I'll pursue it also.

-Syn

[brucereiter]

Well Bruce, I am most comfortable discussing Xing-yi, and I'd have to say that your linking form is very Karate-like, and does not exhibit Xing-yi principles or flavor.

first i will make clear i take no offense at what ever opinions people may have. great thing about america you can have your own opinion.

yeah as i said before hsingi is not my strong point (tai chi chuan is ...) give me a few more years with hsing i i am practicing ... :-)

can you show me karate that looks like what i did?

although i do it poorly i think i do exhibit "some" hsingi principals. at the same time i realize there are several moves in the form as caught on that clip where i do not move all at the same time ... i throw a arm out of time with my body a few times ... lol ... o yeah ... my foot work is lacking too :-(
my lack of skill does not make it not hsingi ... lol ...

to compare here are a few other versions of linking form.

they all have a different "flavor". lots of flavors all being called the same thing. why? how?

what makes them hsing i or not hsing i?

are any of these "karate-like"?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=tasjXH-yo...elated&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KEf6JyvrNno
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LE8B03D2l...elated&search=
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=5
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=7
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

Post these over at Empty Flower, and see the response you get. The guys there are very nice and will consider your relative experience.

i am a regular poster at ef ... most there hate my hsingi (but like my tai chi chuan/push hands)
i dont know if "nice" is the word i would use for some of them ... lol ...

You are obviously dedicated to your style, and I noticed you have linked to some good teachers... I'm not one of those guys who thinks nothing is better than bad training, as with a little ingenuity a person can learn a lot about fighting - but they still cannot claim a system they did not train in.

i am dedicated to my style but i also have my eyes open :-)

what do you mean by claim a system they did not train in?

FWIW- I've seen the footage of Sin The' - he is in remarkable physical condition, but what he demonstrated was not CMA - it looked exactly like a Karate guy imitating CMA. So, really, looking at the root of the system, the answer is very obvious.

ok ... i do not understand how "you" or anyone for that matter can say what is and is not "cma".

are they doing cma? is it "traditional"?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=9
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=5


respectfully,

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

shaolindoiscool - Thank you for the post comparisons. Even though I really wanted to see the external styles compared. That gave me what I was looking for but for Internal, still good comparisons.

NJM - As much as my teacher can. They're very good teachers and will always show you the attack/defense behind movements in forms. I can't say that all SD schools are like that... but the CSC school that I go to... they do.

I like the stuff I'm learning and I've never been this flexible in my life. I'm going to make it a point to ignore the lineage (or as some say, lack thereof). And also make it a point not to disrespect another art or their lineage, I think these arguments just get into the "my dad can beat up your dad" crap.

So, I guess what I'm saying is. If you don't like it. Don't join. But I'm going to have fun and if down the road I find something else I like. I'll pursue it also.

-Syn

I always rest content in the knowledge that my dad could beat up their moms.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The karate argument is tired and makes no sense.

Take mantis for instance:

There's northern and southern.

Northern mantis has 7 star, mei hua, white ape, tai chi mantis, etc.

Every single one of those systems will say: "We're a little different in that we do this or that, as opposed to this or that." Sure enough, they'll look a little different.

Now look at southern (hakka) mantis. It's uber-karate. It's more choppy and halting than any karate style ever invented. The stances are different than NPM, and most CMA styles. The shoulders cave in, and you face your opponent directly (the closest thing, in terms of aesthetics, is Wing Chun). Their forms look like....well, nothing else. Hakka styles are Chinese, but they don't look Chinese (stupidest statement ever award goes to: me). They look harder (external) than Chinese.

Saying a style looks Chinese is like saying a Cheeseburger looks more American or English.

It's either Chinese, or it's not. It can't look Chinese, unless there's a Chinese dude performing it.

California Pizza, Sicilian Pizza, Papa John's, Chicago Style, Italian Pizza....it's all pizza. Usually tastes the same to me. It tastes like pizza.

I've stepped into many different styles and picked up the basics very quickly. I don't announce that I study Shaolin-Do. But very soon they ask: "You've taken kung-fu (note: not karate) before, haven't you?" It's usually just a tweak of a foot, how high to chamber a punch, and how far to clear the line of defense in a block. No big deal. I'd say SD is taught differently than Mantis, or Wing Chun, or Hung Gar, but I'd say the same thing about those other styles in relation to each other as well.

Does anyone have any links to videos of Xingyi of Japanese origins?

How about styles of Tai chi that originated in Japan?

Don't give me Okinawan Crane. I want to see vids of Karate's Xingyi for comparison to Bruce's vids.

[WhiteEarp]

lets put it this way, I'm not questioning your teachers ability or knowledge, I'm only saying Grand Master Ie, personally, never taught non Chinese, period
Maybe he was a student of M. Hiang's

O excuse, :-) this could be true. Uhm i understand now a couple of things i should listen more carefully.
He did train in indonesia but he gave me a paper with names and teachers.
Well there is one thing i don't understand this is what it says:

(he is not good at computers so i had to decifer his handwriting)

Fukien Monkey

Su Kong Tai Dija 1849(hypertichosis)
|
Sifu Haing(chang ming)1882
|

And on the other side it says:

Sifu Hiang(Monkey- Dragon)


Somewhere else he writes some other names of teachers he used to teach with but that was in Jakarta(tai chi and stuff).

But his master looks very old on the black and white pictures? I know of a some master called Hiang. but what is the relationship then? and how old must hiang be? The hiang i see on internet surely isn't 83 years old.
My master is not getting senial:P i hope... one time he says le chang min and then he calls him hiang. Was there some old relative or??
(would be a great help if you knew some more)
He also said i misunderstood him so, i'm terribly sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Mas Judt]

Hakka systems are deceiving, as they are not hard or choppy, but the 'jing' is and can be. A lot of messed up karate stuff is based on misunderstandings of Hakka methods.

Bruce, I'll need to come back to the videos due to time constraints, but I'll try to clarify - when I see broken body mechanics (like when Sin The' did mantis on video, and exhibit absolutely ZERO NPM principles in his movement.) it looks like Karate to me. When I see Shaolin Do make claims of entire systems, and in reality they only teach a recent variation poorly understood, teach Karate style one-step sparring and say it is because it is 'combat kungfu' - these are all things that should spell out loud and clear that things are not what they seem.

But, hey, I don't really care. If people want to drink the Kool-aid, go for it. But on the other hand Bruce, you seem rationale. In time you'll see what I mean, particularly if you are open minded.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Hakka systems are deceiving, as they are not hard or choppy, but the 'jing' is and can be. A lot of messed up karate stuff is based on misunderstandings of Hakka methods.

That's precisely the point. Things can appear to be choppy, even though they are not.

[Mas Judt]

No offense, but I've Shaolin Do - if that is what you are practicing, I might as well be explaining an elephant to a blind man.

Hate to be so blunt, but it is simply the truth.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I've seen plenty, and walked into several CMA schools, practiced with them (still occasionally with one of my Longfist friends at a Longfist school I attended for a while). Fighting is fighting. A horse stance is always a horse stance. A bow stance is always a bow stance. You almost always keep your back straight. When you strike, move, step, you incorporate the waist, and your heels should be your root. You always remain relaxed, and tense only at the moment of impact, and snap all punches and kicks. If one foot is off the floor, the other holds all the weight. Breathing is important as well, in through the nose to the diaphragm, out through the mouth.

What are these fantastic and profound differences, elephant man?

I've been cross-training in other styles/martial arts almost as long as I've been at SD. I haven't seen this elephant of which you speak.

****, man.....I saw the same principles of motion in capoeira. They're just dressed differently, and some are done upside down...hahaha....fighting can only manifest in so many ways.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Perhaps a better comparison would be:

Trying to explain the difference between an elephant and a wooly mammoth?

[brucereiter]

Hakka systems are deceiving, as they are not hard or choppy, but the 'jing' is and can be. A lot of messed up karate stuff is based on misunderstandings of Hakka methods.

Bruce, I'll need to come back to the videos due to time constraints, but I'll try to clarify - when I see broken body mechanics (like when Sin The' did mantis on video, and exhibit absolutely ZERO NPM principles in his movement.) it looks like Karate to me. When I see Shaolin Do make claims of entire systems, and in reality they only teach a recent variation poorly understood, teach Karate style one-step sparring and say it is because it is 'combat kungfu' - these are all things that should spell out loud and clear that things are not what they seem.

i only know a small bit of "chu ka" praying mantis taught to me by a friend i work with.
when i say small i mean only the first 3 postures of one form lol ... from what i understnd of the sin the "mantis video" is it was just some random "kung fu" moves recorded for a trailer intended for his movie ... not as a demonstration of praying mantis ... i really do not know what his understanding of that style is. or what his claims are about that style.

in many cases from my understanding only parts of some systems are taught ...

when you have time i would like to hear your observations of the videos i presented. i think they conflict with the points of view you have already shared.

yang tai chi chuan for example:
i have learned
form
standing
chi kung
push hands
applications
sparring/fighting
dao/broad sword (i am not so good at this)
jian/straight sword (i am not so good at this)

principals and concepts of tin/yang theory etc etc etc ... ... ...

hsing i for example: even though my skill and understanding is low ...
5 elements or 5 roads
12 animals
linking form
2 man set (i have not learned this yet)
jian(i have not learned this yet)
staff(i have not learned this yet)

etc etc ...

for some in the system all of this is just another "dance" to earn the next rank and for others they really study and practice to understand and apply what has been taught. this is up to the student.

for all the students who just do martial arts as a casual hobby that is fine, who cares if they understand what they are doing and where it came from or how to use it? they enjoy what they are doing and for the most part at least gain better health.

But, hey, I don't really care. If people want to drink the Kool-aid, go for it. But on the other hand Bruce, you seem rationale. In time you'll see what I mean, particularly if you are open minded.

i think you may assume i am ignorant about a few things that i am in fact fully aware of :-)

looking forward to hearing from you:-)

best,

bruce

p.s. i sure am typing a lot lol my fingers hurt lol ...

[Leto]

p.s. i sure am typing a lot lol my fingers hurt lol ...

If you practiced external styles you would be doing finger toughening exercises so that you could type all day long. I have to sit at a computer all day long for my job, I don't know if I could do it without my kung fu.

[MasterKiller]

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

A mile wide and an inch deep. What a philosophy to base your life on...

I've been cross-training in other styles/martial arts almost as long as I've been at SD. I haven't seen this elephant of which you speak..

And LMFAO @ Wookie, a 2-year brown belt, trying to debate Mas Judt on this topic.

Mas Judt has no horse in the race and has the most experience and best perspective on this board from which to judge Indonesian and Chinese systems.

[NJM]

Does your teacher show you the application(s) behind each move in your forms?

..............

[Chain Whip]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chain Whip

It is clearly NOT better to only learn a few things from a standpoint of health and longevity. A constant challenge to the mind and body to learn and develop new skills is a far better approach than to learn 10 moves by the time you are 15 and practice just those for the rest of your boring life.

A mile wide and an inch deep. What a philosophy to base your life on...

I don't think I said life philosophy.

Do you have more than one technique?

Are you perfect at all you practice?

Do you have any techniques that have become natural - that you have internalized?

Maybe someday you will have practiced long enough to have what you little you know become a part of you. Then and only then you will understand and desire to learn the next thing ...and the next.