Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[norther practitioner]

Glad to see this sh!t show still going

[bodhi warrior]

"What is striking about this Fukien style, is the startling similarity in principles and techniques to Okinawan karate. Indeed ngo cho kun is accepted by some as the source from which several systems of modern karate have evolved. Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, and Isshin ryu karate all share a common form, sanchin, which is the Okinawan adaptation of the ngo cho kun form, sam chien. In addition, the shotokan karate concept of ikken hisatsu (one-punch kill) was also probably derived from ngo cho kun. Unlike kung-fu styles that advocate defeating an opponent with a flurry of blows, ngo cho kun stresses the reliance on a few powerful techniques." from an article by Mark V Wiley and Alex Co in MARTIAL ARTS LEGENDS • September 1997

While the forms are not move for move the same you would have to Want to Not see the similarities and shared techniques to miss them.

http://youtu.be/Yla9j0AangU
This resembles our San Njie. Although without the dynamic tension. Its the only one that resembles our material. Everything else has a southern white crane feel.

[Eagle]

The missing photo showing the source of some of SD's material.

[theshadowlin]

Been a long ass time since I was on here (and my acct was deleted so I appear new.) I was disappointed, yet weirdly happy to see some of my least favorites are still here, bashin' away. I have to say while the years passed, I don't know about my word-fu but my path has exploded... has yours? I know Judge Pen's has. I have always admired his candidness. But without naming names, about 5 of you... from both ends of the spectrum... Jesus, grow up.

I have a long story, but no time to write it as of now, and it isn't the time. One day I may even write a book on Shaolin-Do. It is a long and interesting history, and no time now to do that.

I have only 3 comments on the Events to offer at this time (and yes I am well aware of all the evidence, cases, splits, yada yada. Thanks for some of it (especially findign the Sources, wow that's awesome!!!), other parts well some is just plain common sense. [Of course he made up stuff, that's like EVERY system I have ever seen. *scratches head* I mean do you guys even read about Chinese history. Taoism and buddhism is like 99.9% non-source material.]

btw I think GM Ie pulled a fast one on GM Sin about the above photo, but you never know, he could have made it up himself. *shrugs* Maybe I'll ask sometime.

1 - It is sad to see that people still do not get 'real' and 'unreal'. I have seen 'real' gung fu experts without a clue, and masters of 'unreal' martial arts that are amazing. If Masters Mingione and Nance are not considered real because they trusted the only source of CMA in KY, and stuck with him for 30 years, uncovering deep secrets of fighting techniques, then I don't think there is a 'real'. Personally, I have converted everything to a whole new level (compounded that elixir, yo), so I feel rather objective to the whole situation as far as insiders go. I feel a bit bad for GM Sin as I could have helped him once upon a time, but he trusted the wrong people's advice and now, after all, it has hurt reputation and finances. Maybe ruined his chances to make a movie. Nothing the I ching couldn't fix.

2 - About that, I talked to Master Mullins, personally. He maintains they are friends, still, but with all that has happened, they need to move on. He slipped once and mentioned some financial arrangement, but I didn't press to see; not my biz. I do not know him, that was the first time we ever talked. So I cannot speak for his morals. [And I'm not as ****y as some that I think I'm the judge here on Earth. Beware, you aren't.] However, I will say, from a Confucian perspective, I was really saddened to see how people do not appreciate what was given positively over all those years. Maybe he does, but I feel it's just ... meh... on some level, and I pray he realizes that, but I understand with everything why not distance yourself, business, etc... Yet, to me, there is some part that always holds you should honor the past. I don't know Master Gary Grooms. But I saw long time ago he did the same cutting out to the Soards and so I expected this behavior. But... well anyhow. Gary Mullins had nothing but nice things OR true things to say about Bill Leonard. He didn't come out and admit he had betrayed him by studying with Hsiang The, but he alluded to it. He also said something true, which is BL always needs someone to be mad at; or belittle or control. I pray that changes for him one day. Maybe it has, I wouldn't know.

Speaking of which, last time I wrote about EMBL I was defending him, stating that when people claim he tries to keep people down that was malarkey. I still hold that is true. If anything BL wants people to be just like him. He is the most metal element person you will EVER meet. His health issues and his martial prowess are testaments to his sheer resolve and willpower. His spying, cajoling, rumor spreading, etc... might be abominable, but I couldn't call it a cult. Some on here have. Especially banned spinskter or whatever his name. There are some dark side controllerisms, maybe some kool aid/embellishment, but the difference is that a cult wants to keep their people suspended in disbelief with them. BL is always looking for reasons to get rid of people... so I don't think it is quite a cult. They really are into it, not like scientology which is pure control.
Besides, EVERY martial arts school prior to 1960 also operated like miniature shogunates, and had all sorts of dramas. Without wars, all they could do was bicker between associations. Just read the CMA history. Or watch portrayals of the era. Yip Man, Fearless, etc... it's part of the culture. The "Masters" under GM Sin learned it from lore, he learned from GM Ie (whose school was proably the same way vs other local dojos) and he from whoever his real teacher was. Period. Nothing new, or remarkable. How people got latched onto Shaolin-Do remains eitehr a mystery OR a clear testament to the amount of jealousy the marketing material inspired in competition (prior to the MMA wave).

3 - As for real and gratitude. How about that Master Nance? I talked to him, too. He is not leaving and he had this to say, "Why would I?" He is happy with the knowledge he has gotten. It's highly effective if studied thoroughly and not given up by some nanny who gets on this forum to complain. Like myself he has dabbled in other arts, because Shaolin is a MMA, and we like all the stuff out there. Nothing we hate. I mean, it's all different limbs of one tree. If you don't get that, you won't, especially not hanging out on a forum armchair philosophizing about 'real' and 'unreal' CMA. But what impressed me is he is gracious, he is happy, he is everything a Master should be. He is friends with GM Sin still, and he knows all this stuff. He doesn't judge Gary or Gary or Bill or anyone. He just goes on with life. Like myself, his life has benefited greatly. Where we all go from here is where we all go. Some will stay with teachers, others like Master Thad will leave and join more 'legit' lineages. I don't judge that, that's a good thing. Bury some pain, move on.

So anyhow, I don't have time or interest in flame wars. GM Sin is my lineage holder (one of many), and a friend I care for. He is as I said before, beyond all of your judgments. If you turn from his system, great. Enjoy it all, don't latch onto the past. Hear that Bill? Bad for your heart.

Just wanted to say those things for now, and thanks to GM Sin for having done something that later touched my life and gave me opportunities to go so legit I can't quit. I mean, this is all like arguments over my big toenails, I am managing a whole body now. I'll leave you with some Diamond of information to show you what all is out there to study. From the Huahujing (Scripture to covnert the barbarians).

"Fifty-Five

The holistic practices of the ancient masters integrate science, art, and personal spiritual development. Mind, body, and spirit participate in them equally. They include:
Yi Yau, the healing science which incorporates diagnosis, acupuncture, herbal medicine, therapeutic diet, and other methods; Syang Ming, the science which predicts a person's destiny by observing the outward physical manifestations of his face, skeleton, palms, and voice; Feng Shui, the science of discerning the subtle energy rays present in a geographic location to determine whether they will properly support the activities of a building or town constructed there; Fu Kua, the observation of the subtle alterations of yin and yang for the purpose of making decisions which are harmonious with the apparent and hidden aspects of a situation. The foundation of Fu Kua and of all Taoist practice is the study of the I Ching, or Book of Changes.

Nei Dan, Wai Dan, and Fang Jung, the sciences of refining one's personal energy through alchemy, chemistry, and the cultivation of balanced sexual energy; Tai Syi, the science of revitalization through breathing and visualization techniques; Chwun Shi, the transformation of one's spiritual essence through keeping one's thoughts in accord with the Divine Source; Shu-Ser, the attunement of one's daily life to the cycle of universal energy rays; Bi Gu, the practice of fasting on specific days in order to gather life energy emanating from the harmonized positions of certain stars; Sau Yi, the science of embracing integral transcendental oneness in order to accomplish conception of the 'mystical pearl'; Tai Chi Ch'uan, the performance of physical exercises to induce and direct energy flows within the body to gain mastery of body, breath, mind, the internal organs, and life and death; Fu Chi, the science of reforming and refining one's energy with pure food and herbs; Chuan Se, the inner visualization of the unity of one's inner and outer being; 'Dzai Jing, the purification of one's energy through ascetic practices; Fu Jou, the drawing of mystical pictures and the writing and recital of mystical invocations for the purpose of evoking a response from the subtle realm of the universe; Tsan Syan, the process of dissolving the ego and connecting with the Great Oneness through the study of classical scriptures and daily dialogue with an enlightened master; Lyou Yen and Chi Men, the mystical sciences of energy linkage for the purpose of influencing external affairs. Of these, the most important for beginners is the study of the I Ching, which enables one to perceive the hidden influences in every situation and thus establish a balanced and spiritually evolved means of responding to them. All are instruments for attaining the Tao. To study them is to serve universal unity, harmony, and wisdom."

[kungfujunky]

Well said Shadowlin.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well said Shadowlin.

Meh...maybe not so much.

There are four things at stake in any association with SD:

1) Martial Arts (the ability to defend / take offensive)

2) The tradition of the art

3) the Teachers

4) Sound business practices


I know it's a silent #4, and one that most MA students do not really care to address (after all, CMA isn't exactly built on sound commercial premises--hence the entrenched abhorrence of groundfighting in TMA, despite its obvious utility in so many circumstances), but this is where I respect breaks with SD. Remember that all contracts and advertising should reflect the most honest branding of the martial arts at stake in SD. SD obviously has enough, in content (i.e., in store), to keep people coming back--even despite the bad brand name and its "corporate culture."

I respect SD's MA--hit hard, utilize sweeps/throws, etc. Learn variety, rather than specializing in a niche that might not utilize your best fighting skills.

I have a hard time respecting SD's Traditions, since many of them are quite sketchy. If GM Sin was misled, he had the responsibility, it seems to me, to question that information the same as we do before passing it on as gospel. I mean--****--I was just a student, but I knew I shouldn't pass on bad stories and false info to other students. It's irresponsible! Granted, this isn't a moral responsibility in so many terms; its a more academic responsibility--checking sources and whatnot. He knew GGM Ie personally, and he learned--something--firsthand from the man. But the rest of the stuff is sketchy to the max, and should have been scrapped. Had he simply come to America and said: "I'm from Bandung, Indonesia, and I learned martial arts from Ie Chang Ming (and that silent et al)," no big deal. Show us what you've got, and prove that it's worthwhile. Wanna make up some forms? Fine, just show me how they improve my martial abilities. It's the Shaolin Grandmaster thing that's the problem, along with misrepresentation in the branding of the forms (you know, all that legal stuff from the deposition).

Teachers are best judged by students and other teachers. I've met quite a few valuable and skilled teachers in SD. Due to the nature of the system, GM The' couldn't spend too much time in one place. But why, when he could visit, did he just teach forms---no skills, drills, techniques, etc. And why couldn't he demonstrate those skills with the fluency he should have displayed?

And then there's #4--you can excel in so many ways in MA, but you've got to keep it real. If you teach good MA, adhere to tradition for tradition's sake, and turn yourself into a great teacher, it seems to me that you still always have the responsibility of selling your product to customers with honesty and integrity. I think the overarching SD framework may have been the problem all the while, since it required adherence to questionable "traditions" and whatnot. How many SD teachers would keep telling the "Shaolin Grandmaster" story if they didn't fear contradicting GM The's personal website and branding campaign? Not many, I'd guess.

My two cents--I'm just a former customer and a student. I'm not trying to start some ****. Just, I completely understand why freedom from the corporate school structure is a good thing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

While the forms are not move for move the same you would have to Want to Not see the similarities and shared techniques to miss them.

Correct.

But take that other 50% of what you would have to NOT WANT TO SEE--the fluent movement, the energy, the athleticism, and the coordination.

I see analogs to Se MEng Tao Lian. But that Ngo guy did them 1000% better. Why? Probably all the stuff he learned and taught outside of the forms--the drills, the techniques, and whatnot. SD could develop these--and I think that's where its future lies. Build on the foundation, create something new to make up for gaps in transmission.

In short, whenever someone finds something that looks somewhat like SD, and then uses it as an example to prove SD's legitimacy, he more often than not glosses over that other 50%--everything that's not in SD.

I've been guilty of it before.

[David Jamieson]

lol, this thread is a prime example of what a cluster hump this really is. Step back, take a breath and look at this pile.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Wookie,
You are also correct in what you say. My interest, however, does not lie in what SD could have or should have been. I am only interested in what the material is and how it got to us.
I have been told in the past by more than one instructor that finding the techniques in the forms was up to the student and once the student had the proper understanding of the forms then applications and drills to work them would be apparent. Now, I know that this is a strange concept to most of us who tend to expect these things to be handed over since we paid to learn them, but I also know, from the little research I've been able to do, that in many traditional schools that was not how it was done. Many of the old masters did not teach applications and drills.

Cool. Here's the thing, though. Let's say that you have forms. What do they teach you about entry? Most MA's I've learned outside of CMA (not just SD) begin with some basic combinations. I'm not talking short forms and whatnot. I'm talking when to jab, leg kick (much less, how to leg kick and with how much power), when to cross, when to hook, and how to tie a basic combo together if you're on the attack. Nothing in a form teaches you entry, and this is the most important thing---when and how do I go on the attack, not waiting to counter. This requries psychological and physical training--the kind you get with contact only. And sooner or later, you have to be on the attack (especially if you're defending yourself). And then there's always a basic bridging/contact drill--chi sau, hubud, contact flow, pad work, or whatever (not push hands). There has to be something to tie it all together. Why are these not a core of SD's curriculum?

I guess what I'm saying is that entry--attacking an opponent without waiting for him to make the first move, and giving a strong enough barrage is incredibly important, yet completely at odds with the form theory. After all, you can't turn a form into a mentality. Sometimes you have to cripple your opponent through force, rather than a chess match. I had to really get used to attacking people in my short mma stint. Nothing in a form prepares you for that.

Then there's the weapons. Two man sets do not a weapons master make. What about actual real-time stick drills and disarms. I've seen plenty sd (and CMA demos), but not many utilizable drills. You can't expect to learn broadsword fighting by form. Nothing in human history suggests such a preposterous idea. Take the weapon out of the hand and nothing changes.

Forms train the body. I don't think they train the mind.

As for the "traditional way," I personally thing that this is pure business. No mystic secrets or anything. Kind of a labor union/guild mentality--don't teach everything, or else your school will die when younger competitors not as interested in tradition open up across the street and start whooping your students' behinds. Again---that silent #4. Most Asian cultures have proven incredibly hostile to capitalism / markets. Their business models reflect this.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Just to play devils advocate:

Lets say the forms are supposed to teach the basics of stick fighting or swordplay. Do you think GM sin in his prime (or sd's premiere weapons guy) could
Defeat a Kali or escrima expert? If we say no, and then say that weapons aren't the only focus of an sd master, and that we are preserving a tradition, then it becomes clear that we need to know what tradition we preserve. If the forms aren't giving us the mastery that drilling would, then the forms had better be doing something else. (Personally, I think they give a well-rounded education). Then it becomes necessary to say--the master of
These forms wished to pass down x, y, z. And if those
Forms are passed down by the master for
That purpose, then he must distill those principles. He cannot project them psychically through a form


Now, I say this having studied under a man who always challenged me to drill and master concepts, etc. but I also know he was not conventional in this way ( in ma, not just sd).

Now,

[hskwarrior]

CORRECTION:

I had to really get used to attacking people in my short mma stint. Nothing in SHAOLIN DO prepares you for that.

How can you expect to learn the ins and out's when most of shaolin do's knowledge is only surface deep? such is the effect of stealing from books and video without proper instruction.

[Shaolin Wookie]

CORRECTION:



How can you expect to learn the ins and out's when most of shaolin do's knowledge is only surface deep? such is the effect of stealing from books and video without proper instruction.

How can you expect to learn the ins and outs of combat when most of Hung Gar's knowledge is only forms deep? such is the effect of doing forms and ****ty drills without proper combat instruction.

[hskwarrior]

How can you expect to learn the ins and outs of combat when most of Hung Gar's knowledge is only forms deep? such is the effect of doing forms and ****ty drills without proper combat instruction.

I guess that's good that i'm not a hung gar guy. but shaolin do will always pale in comparison to authentic gung fu.

[shen ku]

Did anyone take the seminar last weekend with GM Sin The?

[hskwarrior]

gues that answered your question hahahaha