Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[ninthdrunk]

Dangit....I didn't want to jump in on this, but curiosity got the better of me.


What exactly is "wrong" with the Texas Shaolin Do schools?

[ewallace]

Dangit....I didn't want to jump in on this, but curiosity got the better of me. What exactly is "wrong" with the Texas Shaolin Do schools?

Nothings wrong, clearly everything in Texas is bigger and better.

[BM2]

Pretty soon you should hear something similair to "I practice the REAL shaolin-do".

Actually that was preety funny.

[cho]

If it's fighting, then what would that prove? What if, God forbid, the SD people actually can fight? Does that make them more or less legitimate as a CMA claimed style?

Well, back in 2001/02, Willow Sword was getting pretty heated on these boards during an SD debate with another poster named Reemul. WS challenged him, went to meet him, and reported back here saying he lost. That didn't really change anybody's opinion.

[Fred Sanford]

SD is crap. What a waste of time and effort. I just wonder how good some of those 20 year students could be if they had studied an actual martial art.

[David Jamieson]

Ok, let's get this thread back to some real debating. I'll start with:

Nuh uh.

ok, next!

[kwaichang]

Here is an interesting quote and link that confirmes the History of Shaolin Do, although it does not mention by name Soo Kong Tai Jin it does hint to the fact that the Shaolin Masters left China and went to Indonesia as well as other places. So now we can all be at peace. KC


A history of Chinese Kun Tao in Indonesia

By Willem de Thouars

MY REMINISCENCE OF AN ERA THAT HAS GONE BY IN HISTORY, A TRIBUTE TO CHINESE KUN TAO TRAINING IN INDONESIA.

Many misconceptions have surrounded the Chinese martial arts practiced by the Chinese in Indonesia, and by many who have assumed that Kun Tao is some interbred martial art that found its beginnings in Indonesia. In clarifying this misunderstood issue, as we enter the 21st century, I must begin touching the surface of the history of Kun Tao first, before I write about the physical training in Chinese Kun Tao as I have endured in the archipelago.

Safeguarded from non-Chinese outside the South East Asian communities, the meaning of Kun Tao is in essence, a variety of Chinese combative arts practiced by Chinese. These fighting arts of self-defense are absolute entities of the "old" Shao Lin boxing arts brought by Shao Lin masters to the archipelago.

Always shrouded with a mystery to outsiders, Chinese Shao Lin boxers trained their arts under strict supervision of masters in secrecy. In safeguarding their secrets behind closed doors from the "crude" intrusiveness of the Indonesian natives, Chinese settlers had quite often to overcome many hardships and unfair harassment from the natives, and were forced to retaliate physically for their survival.

Several of the merchants were also fully trained Kun Tao experts, acknowledged in China as "seasoned" practitioners, they were the founding fathers of secret "Family" Shao Lin societies in Palembang, Makassar, Semarang, Bogor, Bandung and "old" Batavia, or Djakarta.
There are variable means when the name is applied, for instance the terminology for Chinese fighting art in the Mandarin language appears as Chuan Do (a way of kung fu),
... GONE BY IN HISTORY, A TRIBUTE TO CHINESE KUN TAO TRAINING IN INDONESIA. ... by the Chinese in Indonesia, and by many who have assumed that Kun Tao is ...
http://www.mindspring.com/~achentaij...%20history.htm - 25k

[The Willow Sword]

http://www.orlandokuntao.com/master_...et_willem.html


Here is a history on the Author of the article that KC posted. Nowhere in this article is there a mention of Sin kwang the' Le chang ming or sukong. Nor does he make reference to shaolin do. So how does this article prove the history of Shaolin do exactly? Oh that chinese immigrants came to indonesia? okay i will buy that. it Still doesnt explain the gaps in the family tree of Sin the' or any of the other students that Supposed Ie chang ming taught. Where are they? are they still in Indonesia training in the lost shaolin seceretive art?

This article Proves the History of Kuntao KC NOT Shaolin-do,,,but thanks for the article. Very informative indeed.


Every traditional and legitamate family system be it shaolin or hung gar or mantis has a family tree to signify who started what and who taught what. It gives the Masters ,Students and the masters assistant teachers at the time. And then the history is passed on to the chosen disciple(s) who has been with the master for the longest time. If you look at the records and family trees of just about every other CMA and JMA you will find this to be evident. Where is your alls eh?

What you guys DO have is a black and white picture of a person who is not who it is claimed to be and a "PAINTING" of the next generation of master (ie chang ming)
So where are the other students of Ie chang ming aside from SIn the and Hiang the?


hehe sorry i just had to jump back in for a moment and make this point.

Peace,,,TWS

[kwaichang]

I said that Soo Kong Tai Jin was not mentioned however the history as I have learned it corresponds almost verbatim of what is in the article, it even mentions that the "OLD" Shaolin masters went to that area, that is what I have read and discovered happened with Master Ie. It also has many other corresponding similarities.
Because GGM Soo Kong is not mentioned makes sense he was in China not Indonesia. Master Ie was in Indonesia which does make sense and so does the other statements that correspond with the history of SD. Also in the article the terms for the chinese martial arts are synonymous Chuan do, KunTao, Kung fu , Wu Shu Chuan Fa sorry you are wrong, all anyone has to do is read the article to see the similarities. Im sorry your mad and made the wrong decision, to quit a true "OLD" Shaolin art. Also note that you can call Shaolin Do Chinese Boxing if you want so you can call it Kun Tao in Indonesia and Kung fu in China or Chuan Fa or just Shaolin Do. What it is called does not change what it is a true Shaolin art brought to Indonesia by Grand Master Ie and called Kun Tao or Shaolin do. By the way I did not write the article a master of Kun Tao did and he doesnt have a dog in this fight even though what he said seems to be very very similar to what I have learned. KC

[kwaichang]

BTW WS the article you posted is on the author of the article I posted why would he, the writer, mention SD or GM The in an article about the other guy KC

[kwaichang]

Sanford, You would not have to wonder if you challenged a 20 year veteran of SD when you recover and are out of ICU you would know unless you recieved irrreversible brain damage. KC

[cerebus]

Well kwaichang, SOME of you certainly seem to have brain damage...
Shaolin Do may be many things, but it is NOT a traditional Chinese martial art. It obviously IS Sin The's idea of what traditional Chinese MA is supposed to be. Unfortunately for you fellas, that's just not the same thing. Peace.

[kwaichang]

Well Cerebus how do you define a True CMA what is your criteria a Lineage or is it body mechanics since you were not there when all this occured and when the Shaolin Masters left China what do you base your Opinion on ? KC

[BM2]

[QUOTE=The Willow Sword][url]
So where are the other students of Ie chang ming aside from SIn the and Hiang the?

Masters Liu Su Peng, Je Jou (shiao) Fu, and Qui Kwong were also instructors.

You may recall, WS, of the 1992 visit to Bandung in which a performance by a school of another stundent of Master Ie's gave to the SD group.

[Radhnoti]

Cerebus, do you think it's possible that Willem De Thours would look at what you consider "traditional kung-fu" and call it flowery useless wushu? It seems to be a COMMON critique offered by Indonesian kuntao players. It is also (as near as I can tell) common for kuntao practicioners to believe their lineage is "real/true/old kungfu". There are also quite a few kuntao folks tracing their lineage back to "shaolin". Maybe part of the problem a lot of kung-fu players have with shaolin-do would also apply to a lot of kuntao styles?

BM2, I've not heard too much about that exchange. Any idea what they performed? Differences and similarities? Thanks.

kwaichang, do you think that the name of shaolin-do's GGM is a partial transmission of information? Su Kong = si gung? If so, calling him Great grandmaster Su Kong is repeating ourselves. Lots of stuff like this in shaolin-do...partial transmissions of information...information mangled (like Texas calling the short forms tan tui)...it's all very consistant with a style of kuntao.