Is Shaolin-Do for real?

**tattooedmonk** · 08-24-2007, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by MasterKiller

Like I said, Long Fist forms are designed to train Long Power...Southern forms are mostly designed to train Short Power. If you do Long Fist sets while trying to show Southern Short Power, you are violating the intent and purpose of the forms. Long Fist forms are generally not designed to use a lot short power, which is why they have large, exaggerated, flowing movements. You can't properly generate Short Power with Long Fist movements, so why bother trying?

keywords" generally and mostly". what about CLF,HG, or PM??But you have only experience in some long fist right??and not all northern or southern fists correct??

**tattooedmonk** · 08-24-2007, 01:22 PM

To reach 500.

**brucereiter** · 08-24-2007, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by bodhi warrior

Hey bruce, I have both jiang rong qiao xing yi translations by crandell, which one and which page is the reference to shaolin?

i am traveling right now and do not have access to my books ... it is in one of the "letters" in the from of the book. it is signed jiang rong qiao. i will be home in 3 weeks and if you remind me i will copy the page and post a link..

i think it was in the forward of one of these 2 books ...

xingyi zha shi chui & ba shi chuan _by jiang rong-jiao_translated by joseph crandall_105 pages.

or

xingyi mu chuan (xing yi mother fists) _by jiang rong-jiao_translated by joseph crandall_115 pages,

best,

bruce

**Chain Whip** · 08-24-2007, 01:59 PM

Here is an example of what I mean.

This guy is NOT an SD player, but his form is performed much like I have seen SD folks peform in online videos (and at AAU Nationals in Dallas):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Too much power and snap for a long fist form, and not enough continuous flow.

This is a much better example of the same form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

MK, do you believe that the guy in version you prefer is more powerful than in the other version? If so, why?

**brucereiter** · 08-24-2007, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by MasterKiller

Your Tai Chi looks like Tai Chi to me. But I am uniformed, so my opinion on it really doesn't mean anything.

What I've said in the past is that SD doesn't flow like CMA. I'll revise that. The Northen sets I've seen do not flow like Northern sets should.

Here is an example of what I mean.

This guy is NOT an SD player, but his form is performed much like I have seen SD folks peform in online videos (and at AAU Nationals in Dallas):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=f48lAjfJLek

Too much hard power and snap for a long fist form, and not enough continuous flow.

This is a much better example of the same form:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=h7_syGd3S0o

SD Northern forms have all the right movements (for the most part). No doubt about that. But The Northern "flavor" just isn't there in the stuff I've seen. SD Northern sets are performed just like SD Southern sets. Long Fist sets are supposed to exhibit relaxed power, not hard jing.

**MasterKiller** · 08-24-2007, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Chain Whip

MK, do you believe that the guy in version you prefer is more powerful than in the other version? If so, why?

More powerful? No. I don't see a difference in power levels, just in the type of power generated. Short power has it's purposes, especially when grappling. Long Power is developed to strike from just outside the opponents range..like an anvil on the end of a rope.

Long Fist specializes in Long Power. Other styles, like Hung Gar, specialize in Short power. Two different methods.

keywords" generally and mostly". what about CLF,HG, or PM??But you have only experience in some long fist right??and not all northern or southern fists correct??

Sure there are exceptions. CLF for example. But Praying Mantis is Long Fist (at least Northern Mantis. Southern Mantis is a different beast altogether).

My CMA training is only in Long Fist. I don't dabble outside of it, I don't try to pick up other forms. I only practice my system.

But I don't live in a bubble, and I've competed against a lot of folks at Taiji Legacy, AAU, etc... I'm not completely ignorant about other methods.

**MasterKiller** · 08-24-2007, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by shaolindoiscool

No. They are not all correct. Not in my opinion.

**kwaichang** · 08-24-2007, 04:10 PM

Counting from the top #7 and the 9th one was acceptable the rest were a joke right ??? Surely you guys dont think they represent real TCMA the key word being Martial. KC

**GLW** · 08-24-2007, 04:31 PM

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jDOtSKIJAvA
Kathy Yang – Yi Lu Mei Fu – Yang Jwingming’s daughter

So you can see the difference between Wen Ching's form and Kathy Yang's...both from Yang Jwingming.

As for mixing jing...and the difference... well in general, it messes things up if you do a northern long fist method using southern short jing. You CAN make it work but it is mixing two things together.

As for the difference, well, northern is longer power. It tends to drive all the way back to the feet. The movement sort of - now this is hard to explain so I may not get the words right...it is almost as if the idea for power starts in the Tan Tien...it goes to the foot for the step and then rebounds all of the way to the striking part - like the hand or the foot. In a southern short hand, the idea starts in the Tan Tien and then it simultaneously goes down to the foot AND out to the striking part - the hand or the foot.... So in one, the smoothness helps the power get from the ground to the strike (long) and in the other, the strike arrives from the Tan Tien just about the time the whole body reverbs from the power sent to the ground for the root.

**MasterKiller** · 08-24-2007, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by kwaichang

Counting from the top #7 and the 9th one was acceptable the rest were a joke right ??? Surely you guys dont think they represent real TCMA the key word being Martial. KC

2 is good. 7 is good. 9 is a horrible example of Northern Long Fist power generation (in my opinion, of course).

Does this look powerful?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC-gQgQJm6k

Why doesn't Fedor have to snap his punches?

**brucereiter** · 08-24-2007, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by MasterKiller

No. They are not all correct. Not in my opinion.

all of the people in those clips learned long fist from respected tcma lineages as far as i know, is the only way to do long fist the way your teacher showed you?

you are in essence saying that several legit masters do not know what they are teaching ??? and that only your understanding is correct. that is in my opinion closed minded.

best,

bruce

**Leto** · 08-24-2007, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by sean_stonehart

Not once but THREE times in one reply he speaks the true & simple... no muss, no fuss... somethings you just don't do.

You don't mix... chili & noodles & call it "Cinncinati Style Chili" ...
You don't mix... bbq sauce & beef & call it "Texas BBQ" ...
You don't mix... Boones Farm & Hi-C * call it "sangria" ...

You don't mix... Northern sets with Southern power generation

Hey...I love cincinnati stye chili...my wife makes a great vegetarian version

I guess that explains it. lol

**arinathos.valin** · 08-24-2007, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie

Lineages don't make people better. My longfist teacher had impressive credentials, but his students weren't that great, and couldn't fight very well (compared to SD). What I want to do is challenge myself and learn to fight. I don't know about the system as a whole, but some of my teachers are very scary dudes when you touch hands. Not all.....but the good ones are. And it's always easy to tell the good ones apart.

I do know this, all lineage claims following from GM The' can be verified. They're all documented on SDA, SD, and CSC websites. I can follow my teacher's lineage back to GM The', and from GM The' jump back to the original lineage.

I can look at Senior Master Grooms and see where part of my teacher's knowledge comes from, just as I could look at some other SD guys from TEnnessee and Kentuck and say the exact same thing. And I can look at myself and see where all my teaching has come from, and not all of it is from the master of the school I attend. I give credit to fellow students and some of the "lower level" sifus for all I learned. I didn't learn anything from the hairy guy or GGpappy Ie. So I don't really care about that.

Seriously, leave your lineages at the door.

I would respectfully disagree with some of the points above. The fact is, lineage IS important to a certain degree. One can easily see this by how much energy is devoted by many SDers on this forum to showing a direct link to the Shaolin Temple. That in itself is a lineage question. The fact is, a link to 'Shaolin' is seen as beneficial by more than a few in the system. Otherwise, GMT could have just taken a hybrid system and called it 'ho kum do', or 'me nu do', and it shouldn't matter.

An inaccurate lineage claim, I think, is akin to plagiarism in the real world. One cannot take a journal article or book chapter, rearrange a few words, and call it an original written by yourself. Likewise, to say that a particular form originates from your system when it really does not is inaccurate and misleading. I think this is one of the reasons why the rabidly anti-SD TCMAers get so up in arms about SD. They see SD as making a lineage claim that they have no business making. It warms my heart that some upper echelon individuals are aware of the Jiang Rong Qiao and Cheng Man Ching connection... but I thinkt that far too few SD schools have that same knowledge.

Likewise, at least in TCMA, the instructors that one has learned from does indeed matter. Although a lineage is not the ONLY thing by any means, it is more likely that good students will come from good teachers. Imagine from your above example that one of the 'non-scary' lower skill teachers opens up his own school. How will the quality of instruction differ from one of the 'scary' good teachers you mentioned above?

One last point of contention... I would say that you did indeed learn from 'hairy guy' and GGpappyIe. Not directly, to be sure, but if that lineage is indeed accurate, they are the teachers of the forms that you now learn, and credit and respect should be given where it is due. We stand on the shoulders of those who came before us... that would include our forerunners...

BTW Wookie, why are you now the master of 'chu Bagua'? I much prefer the 'master of the hydrospanner' tag

**arinathos.valin** · 08-24-2007, 05:52 PM

Leto...

Cincinnati Chili was something that really had to grow on me...

I ate some Skyline chili a few days after coming here and said 'neh...it's OK'.

Ate it a few months later, and said 'neh... it's OK'.

Then a few months later I thought to myself 'I feel like some Skyline chili'... then did a double take and said 'WTF, where did THAT come from?'

Now we eat that stuff at least once a month.

I think Bette Midler once called it 'the devil's baby food...'

**kwaichang** · 08-24-2007, 06:18 PM

Fedor doesnt have to snap his punches due to physics Mass x Velocity. he doesnt have to snap. But he looks sloppy to me that is the worst example of shadow boxing I have seen in a while. I am sure he is strong but his Boxing technique was mediocre at best. KC

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