Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Yao Sing]

hi yao sing,

i have never competed in any martial arts "event" and likely never will as i have no interest in that aspect of martial arts.

Same here, never really go into that stuff.

you say the available video is representative of the skill level of the more advanced sd practitioners and it does not get much better than that i dont know if you are looking at everything that is available ...

Been following this thread from the beginning and I've seen most of what's already been posted. My comments were a summary of the opinions expressed in this longwinded thread. I have yet to make any judgments on skill level myself.

Every time a video is posted others (usually practitioners of the same style) point out what they see as lacking only to have SD folks proclaim the video as substandard and not representative of SD. This includes video of SD masters as well as GM The himself.

Are your videos a fair representation of high level SD skill? If not can you post any that are?

i do not know your background or skill level ... but you seem to make blanket statements about our system.

As I said, based on what's posted here. I'm telling you what it looks like from the non-SD perspective since hardly anyone in SD has an objective eye and seem to have a private inside view that they can't share with the rest of the world (read - extremely biased).

i think you and others are being unfair with many of your statements regarding shaolin do.

Of course you do but nobody in SD is stepping up to change the opinions of others. They all seem to be too afraid of criticism. Only you and JP have posted video but neither are master level. I believe what everyone wants to see id the equivilant of masters in some of the styles SD claims to teach.

Maybe a few of the internal guys can comment on the quality of your clips. Do you teach?

a

ny of the naysayers that would like to post videos of them doing their martial arts would be fantastic to see. i think it might help people in shaolin do know where you are coming from with your critiques of shaolin do skill level, material and performances

best,

bruce

There's also a lack of video by the non-SD folks here although they do point to a large amount of video available of masters from styles that SD claims to teach. Now if SD could post something equivalent then maybe the naasayers will change their tune.

[Yao Sing]

what becomes obvious?

Ha ha, I rest my case. Bet that goes right over your head.

[MasterKiller]

Holy Shiznit. I found themeecer:

http://www.myspace.com/Meece

[bodhi warrior]

Is this the one you're talking about?

Yea that's the one. there were a couple others as well.

[Yao Sing]

Holy Shiznit. I found themeecer:

http://www.myspace.com/Meece

So that's where he's been hiding! Profile is set to private so we can't see any top secret SD video there.

[MasterKiller]

So that's where he's been hiding! Profile is set to private so we can't see any top secret SD video there.

Yeah, but check out the hotties in his friends list. Wowza.

[Yao Sing]

Is this the one you're talking about?

Looks like a show form to me. What style is that? Doesn't look like any Dragon I've seen.

So do the SD folks agree that's a good quality instructor level performance?

[brucereiter]

Been following this thread from the beginning and I've seen most of what's already been posted. My comments were a summary of the opinions expressed in this longwinded thread. I have yet to make any judgments on skill level myself.

i have heard many "crazy" opinions posted from "both sides"

Every time a video is posted others (usually practitioners of the same style) point out what they see as lacking only to have SD folks proclaim the video as substandard and not representative of SD. This includes video of SD masters as well as GM The himself.

some people may be defensive or insecure ... that is a problem for them ...

Are your videos a fair representation of high level SD skill? If not can you post any that are?

i think it would be awkward to say my skill level is high ... i will say i am "good " lol ...
i posted a link to my teacher doing yang tai chi chuan i do think it is "high level"
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

i have heard very good comments about his tai chi chuan and lots of negative comments about his pakua chang on these forums though.

one thing my teacher really has to offer is teaching you how to learn and to discover things for your self.

As I said, based on what's posted here. I'm telling you what it looks like from the non-SD perspective since hardly anyone in SD has an objective eye and seem to have a private inside view that they can't share with the rest of the world (read - extremely biased).

i think of myself as having an "objective eye".

Of course you do but nobody in SD is stepping up to change the opinions of others. They all seem to be too afraid of criticism. Only you and JP have posted video but neither are master level. I believe what everyone wants to see id the equivilant of masters in some of the styles SD claims to teach.

my teacher doing yang tai chi chuan ...
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms

Maybe a few of the internal guys can comment on the quality of your clips.

i would like to hear objective critique ...

Do you teach?

in march 2006 i was given a teaching certificate from my teacher.
aug 8 1997 i took my first class from sr master gary grooms who was a new 6th degree master at the time. i started assisting teaching several about 5-6 years into my practice.

There's also a lack of video by the non-SD folks here although they do point to a large amount of video available of masters from styles that SD claims to teach. Now if SD could post something equivalent then maybe the naasayers will change their tune.

again here is my teacher ...
http://youtube.com/user/srmastergarygrooms



================================================
i say the below comments tongue in cheek ... so try to find the humor.
i think if one is going to say negative things in public about people they dont know and have not met they should:
post there real name

post there actual credentials with outside verification

post there teachers name and concrete indisputable proof of their teachers credentials and full history with outside verification in addition to all of the teachers in their line and outside verification. lol ...

post video of them doing their thing

post video of their teacher doing there thing.

lol see the humor ...

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

Ha ha, I rest my case. Bet that goes right over your head.

lol .... .... ....

[BlueTravesty]

So if you grade a style by how well you fight then you must be a good fighter if you win tournaments. KC Tournament are mostly luck not skill. Tag your it.

I would have to agree with that- the point sparring at most tournaments is good for lower ranked students (which is pretty much what I am) to test attributes like closing the gap, accuracy, and persistance (particularly continuous sparring) but that's about it. A guy can be a nightmare to fight, but a lousy point fighter.

The forms half of tournaments though, are a whole other matter, since forms skill and fighting skill are two separate matters- not necessarily mutually exclusive, but separate.

[Judge Pen]

Seriously, what would you think of a school with hundreds of students, who knows how many instructor level practitioners, and decades in business that can't produce one video clip representative of the skill (to date all known video has been claimed as being not the true skill level, no offense JP) or placing in a non-SD only event?

None taken. I'm not a very gifted person, so I can acknowledge the limitations in the way that I do the form, but my hope was that people could still see the "flavor" of the form for what I believe it to be--TCMA.

I placed third in the advanced weapons catagory, btw. Open tournament. Not the Taiji Legacy mind you, but I was only 1 of 2 SD people that participated in that tournament. I placed 3rd in advanced sparring too.

But like KC said, that's no indication of skill, but it is responsive to your post.

[brucereiter]

here are a few more clips from my school ... i was not there as i was traveling at the time ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFK078nTkzc

there are a few external things below:
http://www.youtube.com/user/mr1sifu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h55byqy9NbM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwLrwRefi-c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACZAk5fKrys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWfUBipuzXk

how about people sharing clips from their school or of them self ...

best

bruce

[Shaolin Wookie]

lol .... .... ....

Well, he was aiming up, so it had a high trajectory.

It's funny; you've posted more videos of yourself than anyone could have wished for, and nobody here feels qualified to comment on their quality, although most of us in SD that are exposed to it can say, pretty fairly, they're excellent.

Cool stuff, man.

[MasterKiller]

So is that Ground Dragon form an excellent example of higher-level Shaolin-Do?

[Chain Whip]

It seems pointless to post any videos of anything from SD. No matter how it is done as long as it is identified as SD it will get crucified. Granted, some of the stuff (especially the things from Denver) has been poor. However, many pages ago I posted very positive comments from Empty Flower from people who had seen SM Grooms’ Tai Chi video trailer. As I said then, the viewers only saw a skilled guy in a frog button outfit that they did not realize was SD.

The response here was to ignore it. The same exact video with SM Grooms in a karate gi clearly identified as SD would get hammered on this forum.

Bruce travels all over and has an enormous variety of his own training posted on YouTube. He gets a variety of comments – some good – some not so good on his videos. What seems interesting is after Bruce visits with people somewhere, those people never post anything deriding his skill. I have never seen a comment on Empty Flower that was along the lines of “Bruce came – I whipped him easy” Bruce’s pushing hands/fighting skill is very good and at appears that he holds his own at a minimum wherever he goes.

There are only a few people in the ATL CSC schools that are a match for Bruce. Then there is Master Reid who pretty much manhandles Bruce and SM Grooms who is over 50 years old and 120 pounds lighter than Bruce and he still handles him. SM Grooms has also been all over the world and will “cross hands” with anyone who is willing to do so – yet no one has any “I whipped him easy” stories about him either. If someone out there met up with Bruce or SM Grooms (or EM Mullins, EM Leonard, EM Smith, EM Mingione, SM Price or SM Nance) and actually “crossed hands” with any of them and felt that they were clearly superior to any of them – I think you should tell us who you are and when your meeting occurred.

Bruce posted the following clip also (among many) but I thought I would suggest people look at this one in particular. Master Reid is a retired NFL linebacker (6 years with the Atlanta Falcons) and SM Grooms' most senior student. He has been teaching fulltime since 1993. Here is an elite athlete that has stayed with SD for about 20 years now. The waxwood spear he is using is about 2” in diameter. Obviously this clip does not demonstrate fighting skill but not many people would want to fight this guy. He is about 6’ 2” and 240 lbs - he is unquestionably very athletic. However, his speed and power are frightening to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h55byqy9NbM

This is what I posted a few weeks ago.


When Bruce first invited people at Empty Flower to look at Master Grooms' Tai Chi DVD trailer - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg - no one seemed to know it was a SD guy. Just a skilled guy with frog buttons. Here are some of the comments:


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Looks pretty good. What is your teacher's name? Some of the apps shown are pretty simple, but I think that is alright cause it be a video. I envy his squatting SW.



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Those slow kicks were great!

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Nice looking vide - good to see a video of somebody promoting the 'Quan' of Taijiquan, espcially with all the no-touch nonsense doing the rounds of the video section at the moment. Looked like good solid applications.

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Your Sifu has excellent skill,and flexiblity...i like his simple and direct application's...
i also like his teaching style relaxed and straight foward...

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He moves really, really good. Very smooth and he sure knows how to use his structure and balance. Yes, the apps are very direct and simple, but also very basic. (Both advanced and basic methods can of course be direct and simple.) I would like to see more of what you do in class. Maybe you could take down the camera again and show more stuff from your teacher, apps that he think is to advanced to show here?