Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

Actually, that's a good question. Also, what's the SD background on these forms?

*Yang Tai Chi sword
*Yang Broadsword
*Dragon Bagua
*Chen Tai Chi Fan
*Bagua 2 person set
*8 Animal Bagua

None of the Bagua forms seem to be from the same family. Also, there is a two person tai chi broadsword set. is there any other system that has one?

i presume they came to shaolin do from the notes of ie chang ming that were given to sin the in the early 90's. this seems to be the time when the whole 900 forms thing came into play.

[BoulderDawg]

Just a general question on the teachings of Ie:

Were the The' brothers his only students?

From what I've heard there should be dozens of masters/teachers who learned from Ie. Yet I've never heard of anyone else.

[kwaichang]

Having done push hands with EML I can assure you he understands very well the principles of Tai Chi . Bruce I am sorry but I have seen EML and others perform their Tai Chi but yours seem to be lacking somewhat, sorry if I offend you. To judge someone on a news show is fool hardy KC

[ShaolinGirl]

Prove it.

The Beatles are a classic example. If they had their own way no one would be allowed to record their music. Thousands of artists have covered the Beatles.

It's true. No permission required. Just go to the Harry Fox Agency and pay the fee.

[brucereiter]

Having done push hands with EML I can assure you he understands very well the principles of Tai Chi .

what type assurance can you give me? you just offered me some so please provide evidence of the claim you made that "he understands very well the principals of tai chi". i have seen zero evidence of this.

Bruce I am sorry but I have seen EML and others perform their Tai Chi but yours seem to be lacking somewhat,

please provide a few specific ways my tai chi chuan is lacking. i do have much to learn.

sorry if I offend you.

i will only be offended if you do not give specific examples of what is lacking in my tai chi chuan as seen on the video in question and if you do not give specific details of what is good about bills tai chi chuan.

To judge someone on a news show is fool hardy KC

in what way is that fool hardy? he is just some guy who makes extreme claims time after time in public.

i guess i would also ask is it fool hardy of you to make claims about my tai chi chuan?

bill leonard showed what he called tai chi and showed a bit of yang and a bit of chen.
i think what bill showed is a very weak representation of tai chi chuan i will give a few example below.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shaolinlex#play/all
1.08 his head is leaning forward causing his spine to be out of crooked

1.25 look at the way he steps. he clunks ...

1.30 look at the angle of his knees. and how closed his inguinal fold is. with chen tai chi chuan an important attribute is the "open the kua" that means relax and open your inguinal fold.

and look his yang tai chi here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWsOaCfRUo
1.15 look at the angle of his elbows they point out when they should point down

1.22 when he does the turn to holding ball his left foot is placed in a way the breaks his structure since his knee and toes are not facing the same direction

1.28 his holding ball posture is too close to his body again breaking his structure.

1.36 stepping into ward off he pushes out his left heel causing a break in his structure and again for rool back his knees are not aligned with the direction of his toes

1.46 for push he shifts back and forth but does not use his waist.

2.05 single whip?????? i just do not like it. it seems his hands are too close to his face.

in general bill displays zero tai chi chuan "shen fa" or in english body method in my opinion.

please note i am no master of tai chi chuan. i am just a person who practice and studies who is sharing his opinions about a person who makes some great claims.

also note that i have seem bill do tai chi chuan in many context.

i have seen him learning, i have seen him teaching, i have seen him demoing each time he shows similar attributes which he also shows in the world tai chi day news clips.

[brucereiter]

Having done push hands with EML I can assure you he understands very well the principles of Tai Chi .

please tell me about your push hand experience?

if i may ask where do you live?
why do you post with a fake name?
will you post soem video of your tai chi chuan practice for reference so i can see where you are coming from when you speak about your push hands practice with bill.

[brucereiter]

the word of the day is ad hominem.
please avoid ad hominem attacks.

ad ho·mi·nem
Pronunciation: \(ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem, -nəm\
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin, literally, to the person
Date: 1598
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

[brucereiter]

Bruce
Check your PM
OTD

thanks ...

[kwaichang]

Wow I must have hit a nerve, Sorry Bruce.
I started Taichi in 1980 under a different teacher. All the things you say are true ,regarding tai chi rules etc. I have push hand quite a bit how much/ alot. I am by far not the best. I have pushed with Chen stylists Yang and Taoist Tai chi people. 3 different perspectives. While there is a certain physical technique to attain , the circulation of Chi is by far the most difficult and it cant be seen at times,so once the technique has been learned the focus on the circulation of Chi is the next thing , minus breathing etc. As far as your technique well I felt when opening, the body didnt sink enough the body and movements werent corordinated fully. . Your hand movements were fine and looked good but your body was not in harmony with your hand movement. The summation of your technique did not coincide with your step at times. This is all I can remember this AM. I make my statements from my total experience with tai chi not just from SD experience. Again I apologize for being critical. KC BTW I am not the only one who doesnt use their real name and considering the current topics I am glad I am not.

[sha0lin1]

This is my understanding as well. I think the first time it was referenced as "temple form" was throught the CSC, but my teacher always acknowledged that GM The' learned this in the 90s becuase if was the most popular form of Tai Chi and then taught it to his students.

In Texas, when I learned the 24 posture form, it was claimed that this form was developed at Shaolin Temple and taught there as part of the curriculum and was a mixture of Yang and Chen. Although there was no Chen as far as I can tell.

As far as the history of Tai Chi, Leonard is spot on. This is what I was taught by my Master as well. However, the Shaolin Tai Chi is not very similar to Yang Tai Chi at all. It is more similar to Chen. None of the Tai Chi forms that SD have are taught by the Temple.

Bruce, I thought your Chen was way better

[tattooedmonk]

your tai chi and internal material is getting a lot better. I am impressed ...

*** sidenote*** I am not easy to impress***

Your Chen was very good

[brucereiter]

Wow I must have hit a nerve, Sorry Bruce.
I started Taichi in 1980 under a different teacher. All the things you say are true ,regarding tai chi rules etc. I have push hand quite a bit how much/ alot. I am by far not the best. I have pushed with Chen stylists Yang and Taoist Tai chi people. 3 different perspectives. While there is a certain physical technique to attain , the circulation of Chi is by far the most difficult and it cant be seen at times,so once the technique has been learned the focus on the circulation of Chi is the next thing , minus breathing etc. As far as your technique well I felt when opening, the body didnt sink enough the body and movements werent corordinated fully. . Your hand movements were fine and looked good but your body was not in harmony with your hand movement. The summation of your technique did not coincide with your step at times. This is all I can remember this AM. I make my statements from my total experience with tai chi not just from SD experience. Again I apologize for being critical. KC BTW I am not the only one who doesnt use their real name and considering the current topics I am glad I am not.

the only nerve that was hit is i do not think bill displays good tai chi chuan skill asper previous posts.

thanks for your observations about the form i showed. i am not sure about the sinking comment but i would agree that at times my hands were not moving with my center.
always things to improve on...

regarding push hands i am lucky to travel all over the world. (just this year i was on every continent except africa and south america). martial arts are my favorite "hobby" and i use my travels for work as a way to meet martial artist. i have met and pushed with literally 100's of people all over the world. some very famous, some unknown, some very skilled and some that are clueless. from this exposure is where i base many of my opinions of what is "good" and what is not. please do not assume my experience comes from a narrow view point. it does not.

regarding the fake names. i know a lot of people do it. i personally think people should use their real names. i know that it is not required on this forum but if a man or women makes comments about another man they person being spoken about should at least have the knowledge of who is talking to them. i just think it is harder to "talk ****" if everyone knows who you are then you can be held accountable for your words and actions. that is a whole other subject though.

what do you think about my observations of bills tai chi?

[brucereiter]

your tai chi and internal material is getting a lot better. I am impressed ...

*** sidenote*** I am not easy to impress***

Your Chen was very good

thanks man. i am just having fun with it. as a matter of fact i should get off this computer and go outside and practice ... it is already noon lol.

[kwaichang]

I am not going to critique EML performance as that would not be respectful. I have experienced his "power" though and have had years of experience with fighters and Tai Chi people and know when I have met a man who can handle themselves, in either arena. Ie : external or internal. No one has perfect technique though and I feel alot is lost on any given day as to a persons performance. His was not the best that I have seen him do in the past , but perhaps he didnt know he was going to be so widely criticised. KC

[brucereiter]

I am not going to critique EML performance as that would not be respectful.

why would you think it is respectful to critique mine but disrespectful to critique bills tai chi. both were put out for the general public to see. you are free to make respectful comments about bills performance i would think. you have my invitation to give objective critique of any video i have put online.

to flat out insult is one thing but sharing observations objectively i think is ok.

I have experienced his "power" though and have had years of experience with fighters and Tai Chi people and know when I have met a man who can handle themselves, in either arena. Ie : external or internal.

not once did i say or even imply he could not fight or did not have "power" i have heard from many that he is a excellent fighter. but that does not mean he can express the methods of tai chi chuan.

No one has perfect technique though

you are correct. but the person in question calls him self "elder master" and has been practicing at least yang tai chi for what 30+ years and is the sr student in the system of shaolin do and has a "tai chi chuan applications" video sold to the public. i would hold a person with those credentials to a higher standard than i would hold a "normal" student like myself who does not profess mastery is any martial art.

and I feel alot is lost on any given day as to a persons performance.

lol ... a lot is lost. blah. in the video i showed you of my self in sydney doing yang and chen tai chi. i had just gotten of of a 24 hour flight to australia landed. gone to a hotel for just enough time to drop off my luggage and then did a concert set up and sound check after which i walked out of the venue and had a friend hold the camera for me while i did what you saw. i might add that the flies in australia are a huge distraction i had flies going in my ears and nose and all around my head through out that whole video. i only say all of that to point out that i do not think you should make a excuse for bill. he clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding of tai chi chuan on many videos i have seen of him ranging in time from when his hair was black to the most recent "news clips" where his hair is white.

His was not the best that I have seen him do in the past ,

kc, i am going to have to call bull poop on that comment.
making a mistake or a misstep is one thing but that is not what i saw.

what about it was worse than what you saw him do in the past.
have the courage to disagree with your teacher. noting that bills tai chi is lacking should not offend him as a matter of fact if you are a loyal student i think it would honor him to help him.

but perhaps he didnt know he was going to be so widely criticised. KC

he was not widely critiqued. i think only i made any specific comments about his tai chi and a few others agreed or made a quick comment.

he should know if he is going to be on video available to the public people may comment. also i would think he knew he was going to be on the new doing tai chi so why would he not be prepared?