View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #10366
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    Quote Originally Posted by naja View Post
    Too many forms if you ask me. I recently quit SD because of the abundance of forms. Here's a link to the school I went to, with the testing requirements - http://mullins-shaolin.com/technique/techique.htm

    I spent 14 months there, learned allot of forms, got in good shape, and felt like I couldn't fight my way out of a paper bag. I spent 4 months under another teacher (not a SD teacher) about 15 years ago, that taught a tiger based system. In the 14 months I was in SD, I remembered allot of what I learned from my first teacher and learned two new techniques. 2. In 14 months. I gave SD three times the length of time I had in the other system, and only two new techs?

    Sparring? We did light or no-contact sparring in SD. I mentioned my feelings about the paper bag winning to my teacher one day before class. I was told he didn't let it get beyond what he did due to it evolving into "brawling". I should have quit then. I was about 6 months into it at that point. But I stayed because one of the black sashes hinted to me that it was rougher sparring in the upper belt classes. I was a blue sash at this time. If I had stayed in it, I would be testing for 3rd brown this week. We were told the good news about a week before I quit, that we would be testing in 3 weeks and that we had all the sparring, and short form techs that we would need to get to black. The bad news was that we had 15 more long forms to learn. 15. That's 5 per belt rank in brown. Time for sparring? I doubt it.

    As I was black sash that told you to stick with it, that rougher sparring was ahead, I will stand by my comments. Granted I'm not part of the daily classes of EM Mullins, but I know that his sparring days with the upper belts are very intense.

    I agree that the number of forms is overwhelming. But SD has primarily what I've trained in for 20 years. By the time I reached your level, I felt like I was significantly better fighter then before I started training. I've only gotten better since then. but I've seen several excellent forms people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag too. But their forms were awesome!

    I wish you well and I'm sorry that SD didn't offer you what you were looking for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  2. #10367
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    BM,
    sounds like a good experience. Be well.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  3. #10368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    As I was black sash that told you to stick with it, that rougher sparring was ahead, I will stand by my comments. Granted I'm not part of the daily classes of EM Mullins, but I know that his sparring days with the upper belts are very intense.

    I agree that the number of forms is overwhelming. But SD has primarily what I've trained in for 20 years. By the time I reached your level, I felt like I was significantly better fighter then before I started training. I've only gotten better since then. but I've seen several excellent forms people that couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag too. But their forms were awesome!

    I wish you well and I'm sorry that SD didn't offer you what you were looking for.
    I was actually referring to another student at this school. I had forgotten that we had discussed this. I think my issue with it is that I would have to learn all the forms to get to that level before getting into contact sparring. I personally would rather tag focus mitts and concentrate on footwork instead of forms.

    No worries on it not working out for me. I think I found out rather early that it wasn't my cup of tea, but I stayed because of the friendly atmosphere and people I trained with.

    One thing I will say for SD is that I never met anyone above blue sash that had an attitude. Everyone was as nice as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Indeed, street fighting is not a sport.
    The street may look like it's just laying there, but its plotting, it thrives on people walking all over it, until it decides its time to strike !!

  4. #10369
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    Likewise

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    BM,
    sounds like a good experience. Be well.
    It was a blast. Thanks. You too.
    "Repugnant is a creature that would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of it's fleeting time here." - Tool

    www.bentmonk.com

  5. #10370
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    no it isn't. Most regular MA insurance companies, even karateinsurance.com, cover hard contact as long as you use closed-fingered gloves and foot/shin protection.
    This is my understanding as well. Why can the other MA schools in town afford to do it when most of them only have a fraction of the students that this school has? It has to be preference of the teacher. And I have no problem with that, it's their school after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Right, but a lot of people only have time to train IN CLASS. I think forms classes should be run separate from sparring classes, personally. That way, people who want the art have the opportunity to learn it without fear of hard contact, and people who want fighting methods don't have to waste their time learning patterns that can eat up valuable training time.
    I'm a perfect example of that. I can train some at home, but 90% of my training happens in the school.

    And I agree on your teacher method MK, it makes a lot more sense. I bet we would see very few students start out on forms though. I think when most people got in shape they would want to progress to sparring, if even for just a few months.
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Indeed, street fighting is not a sport.
    The street may look like it's just laying there, but its plotting, it thrives on people walking all over it, until it decides its time to strike !!

  6. #10371
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    Brute Strength

    Talking about styles that have an overwhelming number of forms. I have a friend that kinda did same as Sin The', meaning, he trained in many kung fu styles (like 12) and combined all the forms, etc into one main style of his own. The problem I see with him, his students, & style is that there is too much brute strength in everything that they do (technique). Of course, this is not all bad, but there's a time and place for this type of force to be applied, especially in CMA. Luckily he's a good friend of mine and didn't take my critism offensively when I brought this to his attention. For the next year he focused on trying to become more natural within his art. He even preached this to his students, but in the end, there was still too much brute stregnth being applied and focused on during execution of there techniques. He called me about 6 months ago and wanted to sit down and discuss some possible solutions or methods to correct this aspect of his style. We met and discussed various things, but in the end it came down to one significant fact, Too many forms! The point was this, too many forms allows one to practice many techniques and repitions, but doesn't allow one to mature in there training principles. Variation is important, but only after one can gain the skill and understanding of the previous. Understanding develops skill, not the other around. When one understands a punch can be horizontal, vertical, up, down, to the side, angular, etc then one doesn't need 10 forms to train 10 different ways of punching, in short. Point is, my friend re-structured his style cut down the number of forms, etc to black sash and placed the other half of the system throughout the black sash levels for members to speacialize in after the core training. His members can choose what they want to specialize in after black sash and receive the appropriate certification. Its been another year since we've sat down and talked shop. He is excited. He himself, as well as, his students have come a long way since our first conversation a year ago. Everyone has started to develop naturally with speed, power, force, hard, soft, etc. There's something to say about this. Its not about all the forms one can learn or pratice, its about developing skill through understanding the blue prints (so to speak).

    I only bring this up due to posts concerning styles with tons of forms. Repition is great and offers much benefit, however, people should be careful how they perceive this principle.

    You guys have fun and play hard.
    CS
    The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!

  7. #10372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citong Shifu View Post
    I only bring this up due to posts concerning styles with tons of forms. Repition is great and offers much benefit, however, people should be careful how they perceive this principle.
    How many forms do you teach from these systems listed in your biography: Fujian Shaolin
    Temple Kung Fu, Tong Bei Quan/White Ape Boxing, Changquan/Long Fist Boxing, Tang Long Quan/Preying Mantis Boxing, Yang Style Taiji (Tai Chi), Wing Chung, Five Animal Kung-Fu, Bagua Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Nan Quan?
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 11-14-2008 at 10:32 AM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  8. #10373
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    Quote Originally Posted by SenseiShellie View Post
    So, I am wondering, what forms do you guys require for each rank? Do you have videos that go along with stuff? I'm just curious...
    You can check the SDA website for the list of forms required for each rank......videos are available from some teachers (with permission) to their students after they have completed the class on a particular form....there is no charge for this. When you participate in a seminar, you have the option to purchase a video for that form, which you will receive at the seminar. Having said this I only speak for the way it is at the school here in Lex. Every SD school is controlled by the Instructor who owns the school (within reason).....there are no franchises, but we do have area protection. I guess I better add that I have no idea how they run things out west.....it's CSC not SD.
    BQ
    Last edited by Baqualin; 11-14-2008 at 11:56 AM.

  9. #10374
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    How many forms do you teach from these systems listed in your biography: Fujian Shaolin
    Temple Kung Fu, Tong Bei Quan/White Ape Boxing, Changquan/Long Fist Boxing, Tang Long Quan/Preying Mantis Boxing, Yang Style Taiji (Tai Chi), Wing Chung, Five Animal Kung-Fu, Bagua Quan, Xing Yi Quan, Nan Quan?
    MK, I only teach Shaolin and Tong Bei. San Shou and Shuai Jiao are taught as well, but there practiced as combat sparring with no forms. The styles listed in my profile are basically my experience. After members reach the advance ranks (black sash) they can pick what style/s they want to specialize in. I personally specialize in 5 styles. the other styles I have trained in are more suplemental in nature, which I usually only teach in seminar settings... We focus our intent on quality not quanity, which is good for us since our independent styles usually consist of 4 to 5 empty hand sets, 2 two person sets, stylistic drills and weapons, and applications.

    CS
    Last edited by Citong Shifu; 11-14-2008 at 02:03 PM.
    The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!

  10. #10375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citong Shifu View Post
    MK, I only teach Shaolin and Tong Bei. San Shou and Shuai Jiao are taught as well, but there practiced as combat sparring with no forms. The styles listed in my profile are basically my experience. After members reach the advance ranks (black sash) they can pick what style/s they want to specialize in. I personally specialize in 5 styles. the other styles I have trained in are more suplemental in nature, which I usually only teach in seminar settings... We focus our intent on quality not quanity, which is good for us since our independent styles usually consist of 4 to 5 empty hand sets, 2 two person sets, stylistic drills and weapons, and applications.

    CS
    I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Your black sash students only learn 4 or 5 handsets from different systems of your choosing, and that's their curriculum until they get good enough to decide they want others?

    You don't teach them complete systems?
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  11. #10376
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    MK, lol. No, They learn the Shaolin system; Shaolin Louhan Quan, Shaolin Quan, and Shaolin Dishu Quan. Then they learn our second lineage; Tong Bei Qaun. This is our core training. After this, they decide what style/s they want to persue.

    CS
    The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!

  12. #10377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citong Shifu View Post
    MK, lol. No, They learn the Shaolin system; Shaolin Louhan Quan, Shaolin Quan, and Shaolin Dishu Quan. Then they learn our second lineage; Tong Bei Qaun. This is our core training. After this, they decide what style/s they want to persue.

    CS
    How many hand sets in Tong Bei?
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  13. #10378
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    Our tong Bei Lineage has 4 empty hand sets, 2 two man set, 4 weapons sets and applications. Total= 10
    The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!

  14. #10379
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    Who is their instructor after they learn the shoalin and tong-bei? After they decide what other styles they wish to learn?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  15. #10380
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    Hey JP hows the football team doing KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

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