View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #12556
    .......................................
    Last edited by Old Man; 03-09-2010 at 11:10 AM.

  2. #12557
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    You are assuming he knew about it?? KC No way to know if he knew before or after the fact. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  3. #12558
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    You're happy that someone was harrassed? Speaks volumes of your character...
    no im amused that karma came around the corner with a fying side kick to mr soard

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

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  4. #12559
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    What did M Soard do to you Goju you sure seem to have a big chip on your shoulder KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  5. #12560
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    made me waste my money and didnt provide any useful training

    I am pork boy, the breakfast monkey.

    left leg: mild bruising. right leg: charley horse

    handsomerest member of KFM forum hands down

  6. #12561
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    Post Wow...

    I used to be a member of the Chinese Shaolin Center in Vegas, and I am appalled to say the least. I can't say for sure that he is or isn't capable of sexual assault (I have only met him 5 times during seminars), but he always seemed like a genuinely nice guy. Unfortunately, it does beg the question of the morals of the art through one of it's highest ranking members, I regret to say.

    However, like a few of you have been saying, it doesn't really speak for the art itself. I've trained in SD and out of SD (Bak Siu Lum, Liang style bagua, etc.), so I'm going to try to be as impartial as possible...I will say this though, there are things in the system that aren't exclusive to shaolin-do (for those who say that SD makes up everything). For some of these things, there are misnomers, but SD isn't the only group to do the same thing.

    The Classical Bagua, for example, is reffered to as "Dong Hai Chuan's original form". This, of course, is actually Jiang style bagua, but many schools call it the 'original form'. Sifu Jerry Allan Johnson is one of those. Mr. Johnson has of course, is known for translating several of the classical texts into English.

    The Classical Temple Tai Chi is actually Cheng Man Ching's 37 (or 70 something if counted classically). Again, they aren't the only one who do so. Waysun Liao, who also put out a book on the classical texts (of tai chi) has reffered to the form by the same name.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  7. #12562
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    One doesnt have to be impartial at all. The fact that M Soard did something wrong has nothing to do with GMT or SD. That is like saying an employee is a rapist so the President of the company must be one as well. It is as I have seen the Three different sections West , South East and Tennessee , Texas and Lexington/ Ky are not going to be able to hold it togethor. People have little dedication and want to branch off and do their own thing.. This is just an unlawful example . KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  8. #12563
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    Correction:

    I meant impartial about the art, not the people. I'm well aware of that fact, but I like the analogy. I don't think that because one of their members did something wrong that they should shun them. If that were true, then should you not shun Grandmaster Ie, who was supposed to have killed 11 men to protect his own life? or Grandmaster Su, who was supposed to have killed an assassin hiding in the rafters? While this is markedly different, the point still remains.
    Although the changes are infinite, the principles are the same.
    - Wang Tsung Yueh

    To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill.
    - Sun Tzu

    Boards don't hit back.
    - Bruce Lee

  9. #12564
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    Character and ethics

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    You're happy that someone was harrassed? Speaks volumes of your character...
    I think JP, KC, others with professional backgrounds will understand this and also back me up.

    There are two sources for personal ethics. One is what is written saying we can't do or we get in trouble. The second is what is in one's heart. That is "character."

    As JP kniows, in many states "sexual battery" is what happens when one is in a position of power, control, or influence, uses it for sexual reasons. They might say "consent," but when the playing field is not level, how do you know? That, and one's character, is why medical professiionals shouldn't have sexual relationships with their patients; lawyers with their clients; guards/police with prisoners; adults with minors; coaches with players; and teachers with students. Its why you don't "take advantage" of someone under the influence, on drugs, unconscious, or mentally disabled.

    The good, or "ethical" ones, would refrain even if it wasn't a written law.

    But there are no such written laws for martial arts instructors. It is only the character that is in their heart. I suspect this prosecutor had a good feel for the relationship of a sincere martial arts student for their "master," and appropriately likened it to the above examples, but reaized it might be a hard sell to a jury who does not understand all this "bushido" or "martial ethics." ("Just 'cause he tells you to do 100 pushups or hold a stance for 5 minutes, doesn't mean you should also do . . . "). And it looks like D.S. didn't understand, either. He's not the first martial arts instructor, master or otherwise, I've seen do the same thing: casually hit on a female student outside of class. To some people, in the crudest terms "getting some" -- whether it is money or sex -- is too important, and "ethics" just gets in the way.

    Just like I've always thought martial arts was for something higher, I've also thought, if your Master tells you, wear this uniform, call the art this name, practice this way, you don't say, "No, I'm going to do it my way." That is also why the "master" doesn't try to take advantage. There were many days and hours I, and others, would help GMS outside of class, doing work around the school, sometimes long hours and hard labor. But it served a purpose and as far as I was concerned was a return of respect, and I don't regret a minute of it. But there is a line and D.S. apparently crossed it. Which maybe is a character trait also evidenced in other ways.

    Is martial arts just about fighting? Just about making money? Just another opportunity to get laid? I never thought so, but obviously others do.

    Just my two cents. I could be wrong. But I don't think so.
    Last edited by One student; 09-26-2009 at 07:59 PM.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  10. #12565
    Personally I have no problem at all with David nailing every female in the school.

    The problem was that some of them said "no" but he continued anyway. Also, had it been handled differently I don't think we would be where we are now. Richard Nixon could tell you what happens when you have too much power.

    It's a sad situation and apparently the Soards are going to keep the school opened as if nothing has happened. I'm really interested to see how that goes. Most lower belts did not know what was going on but I have a felling they do now. Also, I really can't see anyone wanting to join the school anytime soon.

    In any case, if they want to keep the school open and can find people fool enough to train under them then I say go for it!

  11. #12566
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    This is why if I teach I do not teach children under 13 yrs of age and only if a parent watches the class while they are in it. too much BS about kids and women etc to take a chance KC Sad isnt it that we have to think this way!!
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  12. #12567
    Just being fair and accurate, I don't believe Soard was ever accused of making any advances towards an underage girl.

    I think he was really more interested in the power and control than anything else. It turned him on to have power over a 2nd/3rd degree black belt like that.

  13. #12568
    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Just being fair and accurate, I don't believe Soard was ever accused of making any advances towards an underage girl.

    I think he was really more interested in the power and control than anything else. It turned him on to have power over a 2nd/3rd degree black belt like that.
    You see this is where I have an issue, how do you know what was going through his mind and what he was feeling??? Everyone know and understand should understand that there are certain chemical and energetical type exchanges that happen when you get that close to someone......Sometimes the lines get blurry and sometime they seem to not exist.

    You know some people that are sick or do the wrong things are not aware or know that they are sick or did something wrong. I am not saying that being ignorant or stupid is an aceptable defense but obviously there is more to this story than what is being posted in the papers and the web boards......

    Its not just black and white.....


    I am not defending his or anyone else's action , I just want to know all the facts first before I develope some type of opinion.

  14. #12569
    How is anybody suppose to know without crawling into his head?

    All we can go by is his behavior and reactions. It's obvious from his statements in court and other places David thinks he has done nothing wrong....So what? I'm not willing to cut him slack just because he thinks he's innocent.

    Also there is the fact that the Soards and The', for that matter, have handled the situation with an iron fist when it came to dealing with students who felt this was wrong.

  15. #12570
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    So there is a guy who is sexually inappropriate, so what if it were known there is one in every style probably. This proves or disproves nothing abbout SD except that an organisation that big is going to have weird people in it. KC
    except that the guy is a SENIOR grand-high muckaty-muck of the "system", who is supposed to EMBODY the high-fallutin' moral principles (you know, those pesky Shaolin Buddhist precepts) taught by the "style", and becaquse of his position should be held to a particularly high standard and set an EXAMPLE for the thousands of students under him (no pun intended); it also speaks volumes about GM The, who has had a long-standing, close relationship with Soard, and who either a) didn't know about this, meaning that he is a TERRIBLE judge of his senior disciple's character or b) did know about it and didn't say anything and then is just a TERRIBLE human being in general (given his propensity at selling BS in general, my vote is a on b), btw);

    either way, it speaks volumes about the general cult-like ethos permeating SD; the fact that people on here are trying to mince words and split hairs about what happened, talking about his mindset or some other BS like that, is just kool-aid fueled damage control;

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