Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Is his Tiger/Crane a good display?

Let me be hyper-critical here, because its the internet and its not me on video doing the forms:

With all due resect to sifu smith, I didn't like his tiger/crane very much. Granted my horse stance isn't as strong as it should be, but I was taught that the butt should be at the knee and his hand techniques were off. It seems as if he was so hyped up for the performance that he sped through many of the techniques to the point that they were shorted and not fully extended. He also seemed to sacrifice balance at times. It wasn't bad, but I've seen better from my perspective and he was obviously taught a bit differently than I was.

The chain-whip demo was nice.

The youth long-fist was a too high in their stances. (their butts should have been at their ankles for a good portionof that form)

Hsing-Ie two man set needed to be crisper and faster. No apparent connection between the body and the technique. No rooting or internal power generation from San Ti.

The gentlemen doing 7* sword was very stiff. Don't know if it was nerves or physical limitations.

Classical pa Kua was an excellent represenation of SD pa kua (although it would have been nicer if the camera was further away to show his footwork.

As far as Master Reid, he may do some of the forms differently then the way I was taught, but that's no crititic. He is one of the best SD people out there.

I could probably nit-pick almost every form there. If I was on video doing these forms (I know almost all of them myself) I could be just as, if not more critical. All and all it was a basic, across the board sampling of your typical SD class. Good and bad.

[Baqualin]

Let me be hyper-critical here, because its the internet and its not me on video doing the forms:

With all due resect to sifu smith, I didn't like his tiger/crane very much. Granted my horse stance isn't as strong as it should be, but I was taught that the butt should be at the knee and his hand techniques were off. It seems as if he was so hyped up for the performance that he sped through many of the techniques to the point that they were shorted and not fully extended. He also seemed to sacrifice balance at times. It wasn't bad, but I've seen better from my perspective and he was obviously taught a bit differently than I was.

The chain-whip demo was nice.

The youth long-fist was a too high in their stances. (their butts should have been at their ankles for a good portionof that form)

Hsing-Ie two man set needed to be crisper and faster. No apparent connection between the body and the technique. No rooting or internal power generation from San Ti.

The gentlemen doing 7* sword was very stiff. Don't know if it was nerves or physical limitations.

Classical pa Kua was an excellent represenation of SD pa kua (although it would have been nicer if the camera was further away to show his footwork.

As far as Master Reid, he may do some of the forms differently then the way I was taught, but that's no crititic. He is one of the best SD people out there.

I could probably nit-pick almost every form there. If I was on video doing these forms (I know almost all of them myself) I could be just as, if not more critical. All and all it was a basic, across the board sampling of your typical SD class. Good and bad.

I agree...like I said I see more of the internal.....I thought in the Classical Pakua he was putting to much snap in his hits...were taught to be more free flowing.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

I agree...like I said I see more of the internal.....I thought in the Classical Pakua he was putting to much snap in his hits...were taught to be more free flowing.
BQ

I can see that, but I thought his transitions were very flowing despite the snap. Plus I know the guy and have seen him move in person, so I have a very high opinion of his ability.

Master Tremayne Brown and Master Reid are very fine representations of SD in Atlanta. I wouldn't hesitate to train with either of them.

[Baqualin]

Seeing the whole demo of each and a full picture as to see the footwork would help...besides the snapping, I would liked to see more intent....the speed he was doing the form for demo purposes might have cause some of this . It is, a good representation of SD preformances....... Overall great marketing piece. The Terra Cotta soldiers were awesome.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

Seeing the whole demo of each and a full picture as to see the footwork would help...besides the snapping, I would liked to see more intent....the speed he was doing the form for demo purposes might have cause some of this . It is, a good representation of SD preformances....... Overall great marketing piece. The Terra Cotta soldiers were awesome.
BQ

KC and I were working on Pa Kua this weekend. There are differences in the way he was taught versus the way I was taught. Let me ans you a generic question: Typically what speed do you perform classical pa kua (specifically the circle walking)? I take it from this comment, you think Master Brown steps were faster then the form typcially should be trained?

[Baqualin]

KC and I were working on Pa Kua this weekend. There are differences in the way he was taught versus the way I was taught. Let me ans you a generic question: Typically what speed do you perform classical pa kua (specifically the circle walking)? I take it from this comment, you think Master Brown steps were faster then the form typcially should be trained?

Yes, I think he was rushing (I do that sometimes in demos....you get excited)......you should train at a speed that allows you to maintain the intent of each posture, stepping and the principles of the 64 rules (this is harder than it sounds)...if you can increase your speed and maintain these principals...great....if not, your just running around a circle, bouncing up & down, flailing arms (you will see alot of this in SD) and getting nothing out of the form. Go back and look at the old KET shows.....there's some of EM Smith & EM Leonard doing Classical.....they move slower than most you see.....they maintain the principles. If you train at the three height levels and maintain the above you will have a routine from hell....I have the pleasure of going through it with EML on occasion and he glides around the circle like he's on air cushions. I'm a long ways from mastering this....but that day will come

[Golden Tiger]

Nice demo. Some things to nit pick but over all, nice.

As for the Pa Kua speed question, BQ is the man on that one. I am thinking about 2X tai chi 24 speed. For classical, you should use the mechanics of the form to generate power, not speed. Now with some of the others, speed comes into place once the mechanics are understood. Think 64 vs. 24 vs Chen 128. Learn to crawl, then walk then finally run.

As my old basket ball coach used to say: Technique, follow through then the shot will come.

[LaterthanNever]

It;s ok I guess. The Tiger/Crane seemed a bit off..his right hand should not have been so relaxed and just hanging there in the beginning of the est.

The internal stuff seems like it is performed externally.

I'd rate it fair...4 on a scale of 10. But I've seen alot worse..such as Temple Kung fu guys..

I want to make the following statement:

Any art in which people learn greater self discipline, respect for others, and oh..self defense too is good

But when the SD people tell me that they can learn "900 styles" or whatever the # is..I still can't help but cringe..and I mean that I'm not trying to intentionally throw that in their faces..

It's just that..there seems to be this confusion. If someone learns Fu-Hok(as taught in Hung Ga) ..this is NOT an entire STYLE. It's a form OF a style.

As for learning 900 forms? By ONE person?

NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!

I've seen a list of the SD guys "forms" and some of them are the names of patterns in forms. An example of a pattern would be "Youngster bows to Buddah" or "Beauty looks into mirror".

If the SD people want to say "You can learn 900 patterns..split among..30 forms(or a more reasonable number)..then I would be not so...

how can I put it..my bullsh-t detector would not be going off.

[bodhi warrior]

It;s ok I guess. The Tiger/Crane seemed a bit off..his right hand should not have been so relaxed and just hanging there in the beginning of the est.

The internal stuff seems like it is performed externally.

I'd rate it fair...4 on a scale of 10. But I've seen alot worse..such as Temple Kung fu guys..

I want to make the following statement:

Any art in which people learn greater self discipline, respect for others, and oh..self defense too is good

But when the SD people tell me that they can learn "900 styles" or whatever the # is..I still can't help but cringe..and I mean that I'm not trying to intentionally throw that in their faces..

It's just that..there seems to be this confusion. If someone learns Fu-Hok(as taught in Hung Ga) ..this is NOT an entire STYLE. It's a form OF a style.

As for learning 900 forms? By ONE person?

NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!

I've seen a list of the SD guys "forms" and some of them are the names of patterns in forms. An example of a pattern would be "Youngster bows to Buddah" or "Beauty looks into mirror".

If the SD people want to say "You can learn 900 patterns..split among..30 forms(or a more reasonable number)..then I would be not so...

how can I put it..my bullsh-t detector would not be going off.

If you count the number of long forms taught up to 5th black there are only 85.
This is counting the hsing i 12 animals as 1 form, the five fist as one form. And not counting the conditioning forms or basic short forms.
This is significantly less than choy li fut which list well over 200 forms.
And less than the number of long forms taught out by his brother.
It's funny hearing Master Sin claim to have mastered 900 forms but his brother never made such claims that I know of and he was a 7th degree black.
According to Master Sin's own words he was going to teach everything he knew in 10 years, making this comment in the late 80's I believe. Then he goes to indonesia and is given all of Master Ie's notes, now he knows 900!

[bodhi warrior]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

[LaterthanNever]

"Then he goes to indonesia and is given all of Master Ie's notes, now he knows 900! "

I'm sure he has enough $. Let him spend a few years putting ALL 900 on video for the public to see..THEN I will believe it.

Until that time..it's just an unsubstantiated claim. I can claim I know 4,000 forms--doesn't mean it is true.

Besides..more is not necessarily better..

[Toby]

If you count the number of long forms taught up to 5th black there are only 85.
This is counting the hsing i 12 animals as 1 form, the five fist as one form ...

Xing yi animals aren't one form, elements aren't one form. And that whole system is one that takes some practitioners many years to get really proficient in (i.e. not just mimicking movement but owning it) and a lifetime to master. And yet it's a stepping stone, simultaneously "learned" with many other forms from disparate styles to progress between two black belts?

[bodhi warrior]

Xing yi animals aren't one form, elements aren't one form. And that whole system is one that takes some practitioners many years to get really proficient in (i.e. not just mimicking movement but owning it) and a lifetime to master. And yet it's a stepping stone, simultaneously "learned" with many other forms from disparate styles to progress between two black belts?

I agree they are not one form. I just counted them as one for counting purposes.

There are other shaolin groups that teach the internal arts to supplement their systems, ie. peter chema group, tang shou tao, choy li fut etc.

[Leto]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

I think it was determined that you cannot copywrite the material itself. Once you learn something, you've learned it and it's yours to do with as you wish. But you can copywrite a system or method of instruction. So the ordering and format (and the name that you call your system) in which the forms are taught can be copywrited, and can't be reproduced without consent. I'm not sure if this applies to the actual names of the forms, or just the school and system in general.

[naja]

I think it was determined that you cannot copywrite the material itself. Once you learn something, you've learned it and it's yours to do with as you wish.

I was thinking the same thing. Look at the horse stance. Practically every CMA has it, and look at the kicks as well. You can't copyright such things. It would be like trying to copyright a jab or left hook in boxing.