View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13891
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    I think he just put together a sample of hua fist. But he is part of gm sin's lineage. Not sure who his teacher is. But I can appreciate his athleticism and technique. I never learned hua but wish I would have. Have you seen any vids that are a close approximation?

  2. #13892
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    I have copies of the Hua as I was taught, this fellow is of the Sword schools of the west and seems to have had Tae Kwon Do back ground from his mechanics and execution of his techniques. His stances are not rooted but has good flexibility. KC I will look on U tube to see if there are any closer
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  3. #13893
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    Since folks are talking Mantis here, I will jump in! (Just kidding, I know jack about mantis, aside from our BSL interpretations of some movements & theories).

    LTN - Gotta know that I am with you on this, but also with the SD folks (bet you thought you'd never hear that from me, Sean, eh? :P)

    I agree that SD is not what it purports, however I have too many friends that have been in SD and were able to pull the gold from the fodder so to speak, both in forms and fighting. That being said, I just can not buy the idea that simply because SC may (now...) have some northern preying mantis forms and such in it, that the student will be proficient in a northern mantis system (especially since there is NO "northern mantis" but rather a bunch of different mantis styles being of northern origin, like 7 star, mei hua, taiji, yadda).

    And this could be said for any of the gazillions of styles purported by SD. Simply because someone picks up and then teach Sam Bo Fu Nan Choi, for example, it does not make them a Jook Lum practitioner.

    No disrespect to the SD folks here - it's a new day and most people have access to the information out there, so they are making a conscious choice to go to SD, as for as I said earlier, it can definitely expose folks to some ideas & forms and give them fighting skills. However to be a true TCMA practitioner, ya have to train a true TCMA style.

    Anyway, I am enjoying following this discussion. I won't post (cept for maybe every other two hundred pages or so :P) unless someone talks to me directly. Otherwise - y'all have fun now!
    Yes, "Northwind" is my internet alias used for years that has lots to do with my main style, as well as other lil cool things - it just works. Wanna know my name? Ask me


    http://www.pathsatlanta.org

  4. #13894
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Not really it seems the guy is slowing down and emphasizing Power more than anything but that is not the SD Hua either. KC
    Jake has added his own style to it, but SD is the source . He is an ex CSC student...you know the one that was caught up in all the drama last year and the year before, remember? he changed his last name...

  5. #13895
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    "LTN - Gotta know that I am with you on this, but also with the SD folks (bet you thought you'd never hear that from me, Sean, eh? :P)"

    Hey..it's no skin off my nose who or what you want to believe!

    "agree that SD is not what it purports, however I have too many friends that have been in SD and were able to pull the gold from the fodder so to speak, both in forms and fighting. That being said, I just can not buy the idea that simply because SC may (now...) have some northern preying mantis forms and such in it, that the student will be proficient in a northern mantis system"

    Saying that one is "proficient" in a mantis style(regardless of 7 star, 6 harmonies, 8 step, plum blossom,etc.) just from learning 2 or 3 forms is like taking 2 or 3 college classes in a semester of "Spanish 101" and(after failing to attend the rest of the classes for the rest of the semester/quarter/trimester) considering onself fluent in Spanish. I can't remember who made this analogy once..but whoever it was..thanks!


    "(especially since there is NO "northern mantis" but rather a bunch of different mantis styles being of northern origin, like 7 star, mei hua, taiji, yadda). "

    Praying mantis as a style(regardless of what sub style) began in Kwangtung(Northern China) province.

    "And this could be said for any of the gazillions of styles purported by SD. Simply because someone picks up and then teach Sam Bo Fu Nan Choi, for example, it does not make them a Jook Lum practitioner"

    BINGO!! And that is why the "900 styles" claim is too off the wall. A student doesn't learn the form "Gung Ji Fook Fu Kuen" in the Hung Ga style and then go around saying "I'm a Hung Ga sifu". Well that's what Sin Kwang The dupes people into believeing (ie: you've learned one form from 30 different styles of kung fu..therefore you know all 30 styles). Just plain nuts!

  6. #13896
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Jake has added his own style to it, but SD is the source . He is an ex CSC student...you know the one that was caught up in all the drama last year and the year before, remember? he changed his last name...
    So what did he do wrong exactly. I remember their being some controversy but never got any details.

  7. #13897
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    Ltn

    What are you trying to say, that SD has no supported training for its styles or forms if so you are wrong, the mantis itself has much to offer in that aspect You ever train or see SD at all? KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  8. #13898
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    "the mantis itself has much to offer in that aspect You ever train or see SD at all?"

    Don't need to train in SD my friend..I study mantis!!(8step mantis). I've seen some SD and admit to not being very impressed..

  9. #13899
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    Dont know what you have seen , but there are good and bad in anything Kung fu included. So sorry you had a bad experience with what you saw. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #13900
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    Sheesh....

    The naysayers on this site still crack me up.

    I'll admit that SD or ST or whatever is not "official" Shaolin, but I still haven't seen official Shaolin. Every Tai Chi instructor I've ever had--2 from China--has the "official" Tai Chi, and it's always some moot application that gives the form its "originality." To me, Tai CHi is wrestling, plain and simple. I don't care what the "official" applications are outside of curriculum issues as long as I can use Tai Chi principles.

    SD/ST has its own forms, several of which are common to other martial arts. Look at Bai Yuan Tou Tao---50 versions of a form across various arts, all basically 7 Star. And all 50 versions teach the same principles of motion, blocking, punching, and trapping. It doesn't matter who you learn a form from, and you don't need "official" applications. After rolling in BJJ and training MMA, and studying ST/SD for 7 years on top of that (I think it's 7 years), I can tell you one thing:

    If you need "official" applications, you probably have been missing the point all along. LOL.

    As for Su Kong and the gang...is this even an issue? It's not like people are "pushing" an alternative history. There's advertising, sure, but nobody walks into the school saying--teach me your shaolin wookie lineage. LOL. People want to get fit and learn some cool stuff.

    I still haven't seen a drunken form outside of SD that was ever worth a ****.

  11. #13901
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    SD History

    SD has its history--take it or leave it. Some parts are true, some are fabrications. This is GUARANTEED in all history, esepcially in Chinese martial arts.

    GM The' was taught by Ie Chang Ming was taught by Su Kong. Was Su Kong a wookie? Maybe....who knows? Was he master of Shaolin? Unlikely....but again...who knows? Just about everything in China was thrown down the Orwellian memory hole, and Shaolin is highly mythical anyways. I'm a skeptic, but then, MA history isn't history per se. And I can tell you that about 90% of SD /ST students don't give a flip about lineage traditions. Since most students aren't Chinese, "intellectual lineages" don't mean much.

    LOL....

    People in the US keep telling us that China has the world's #1 economy, but they're inflating their currency beyond even what hte US and the EU have dreamt of, and they've been building phantom cities. Still, they're throwing out irrelevant GDP landmarks on a yearly basis. History will tell a different story when the Chinese economy collapses, since nobody beats the laws of economics. Who will have the correct history on this one? Authorities will be divided.

  12. #13902
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    As for who has the best mantis....

    A mantis is a mantis.

    QED.

    What is mantis kung fu? It is, well, kung fu that looks "mantiddy." Whose looks the most "mantiddy"? I don't know. Whose has the most effective "mantiddiness"? I have no idea. Can you hit? Can you trap? Can you block/redirect? Can you do these things utilizing the proper methods of motion?

    If you can, you're doing mantis.

    Which of these two guys is doing better mantis?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E9uLaMBevg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=ODreYYme0rs

    Both pretty ****ed good, but the forms are different. Principles of movement are the same, and both are better than I am....but I'm not a mantis specialist.

    Still doesn't explain if either guy can "fight".....since that depends on many more factors than how a form looks, the principles it teaches, or even the length of training. All of that depends on circumstances. I've seen amazing BJJ guys get tapped out by people they "should have" beaten.

  13. #13903
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    As my teacher explains it....SD/ST has a "shaolin" root. Everything--Tai Chi, Pakua, etc., has a kung fu base in our system. It's part of the SD/ST way, and you can immediately see that difference when watching performers of various styles within the system.

    The way I see it, EVERYTHING GM Sin taught is tinged with the root of the curriculum---Short forms. Doesn't matter the style, the animal, internal/external--everything in ST/SD has a tinge of the 30 short forms (though there are many more, from what I've heard).

    This is good and it is bad. #1--it means that you should never flounder for analogs to movements. The bad? It means that sometimes you find yourself "breaking the rules" of internal/external forms. That's where the controversy comes in for insiders and outsiders, but it's usually a quick fix for openminded practitioners.

    It's no big deal unless you're looking for absolute, inviolable martial truth. But what in the hell woudl that look like anyways?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_c1O...feature=relmfu

    "I have 5 X your strength! You're no match for me!" (BTW, worst stunt double ever)

  14. #13904
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    900 forms!

    Blah blah blah. GM Sin says this or that on his advertising.....

    I know something like 60 forms. My best? Yang Tai Chi, any crane, birds, spears, and I'm working on drunken styles (they rearranged hte curriculum down here to get the younger students working on Drunken early....which is SWEET!).

    But when you know any of SD/ST's forms, you know the 30 basic short forms. I know those forms the absolute best. They're my go-to techniques because they're the most natural....doesn't matter the style or the flair. They're the basis of everything.

    In a way, I know short form #1 and #2 in like 60 different ways. I can go without practicing those short forms for 2 weeks, practicing only my other 59 forms. And when I go back and study the 30 short forms, I'm always better at them. I can guarantee you that every SD/ST practitioner on this thread who is worth his/her sand will tell any naysayer the exact same thing.

  15. #13905
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    30 short forms cover: front sweeps, back sweeps, throws, locks, punches, kicks, angles, movement. Nothing fancy. Straight and to the point. These are the ABC's of SD/ST. And they are incredibly versatile in my opinion. I use the same principles of the short forms whether I'm wrestling, sparring, or rolling (that is, before [or if] I hit the ground). I'm no martial god, but I'm certainly no pushover.

    Throw in the ippons, chinna, and techniques, and you have everything you need for "applications." Funny thing is--every application I've seen in a non-ST/SD system has the same fundamentals, dressed differently. Not all people in ST/SD are good at those applications (i've seen them personally in Wing Chun, Longfist, BJJ, Judo, and Japanese Jujitsu) but the root concepts are always the same.

    Bad side= those "forms" etc., are the most boring and unsexy pieces of the SD/ST curriculum. Newbs to the SD/ST scene think they're boring, at least that's what I have gathered from my experience teaching them, and therefore neglect them.

    I can always tell who knows their stuff (rather than "remembers" 20 forms, or even 60 forms) based on their short forms and chin na. If you don't know that, you don't know jack. If you know 'em, you don't know Everything, but you know the principles behind everything.

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