Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Correct. Not the easiest thing to accomplish, esp. for me. I can only get my two back kicks to about knee height and still pull off the two front kicks. I understand the aim in those two to be to the groin & knee regions..... Hope that's right, cus I sure ain't getting them much higher!!!

Double front snap kicks are a fantasy kick. You don't aim the first kick. It's a fake. You aim the second one at his head. Seriously, nobody in the world can generate power for two kicks in the air, hitting a target with any meat (besiides board breaking.......try it on a heavy bag sometime....LOL). If you hit with the first you don't have room for the second, and even if you did, it'd be just plain dumb because you'd land off balance. The first kick is performed standing mostly to fake and generate power for hte lift-off kick.

[brucereiter]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

good to see your clips ... more sd people should share there practice and exchange ideas with others ...

if i may comment on your tai chi chuan ...

1. hands move with your center (meaning body moves not the arms)
2. study your weight transfer through a whole movement such as brush the knee or fair lady.
3. i think it is good to practice it at various speeds but more important than fast or slow is having your whole body connected and moving everything at once.
4. hip rotation + weight transfer (know the direction of your energy)it is very important.
5. avoid letting your hands move without your body moving
6. continuos movement one posture leads into the next.
7.the more mistakes in a posture the less power
link joints to create power



these are only some of my opinions :-) take it for what its worth and please keep sharing your stuff.

for those of you who have not seen my practice ...
yang "64" section 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynXWQYo5ZFY

chen xinjia section 1 yang 64 section 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvaC2h1X5qw

some push hands practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0TDZpJMLvM

hsing i beng chuan practice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvAfiEBPegA

hsing i linking form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1fpOAkhIEo

[bodhi warrior]

Here's some forms that can be found on youtube.

fei hu chu dong
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZWsD9MN7c

si men tao lian
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfFt2QVEwVw

If you like them, then I agree! this guy is awesome!
If you don't like them, give this guy a break, he's clearly just experimenting with his camera in his living room...
This guy is me

None of these are exactly as I was taught at CSC, but I decided to change the emphasis of a few things as an experiment, as you can all see. it's the same with all the other forms I filmed. The yang taiji is super fast, because if I did it any slower it would not fit on the camera's memory card (it's not a video camera, but a digital camera which can do short movies).

While the movements were performed differently than the way I was taught, I did think you had good power and intent.

[BM2]

I missed that one. We don't have a side-kick in that form. Those are two back-kicks straight into two front-snaps for us......

You know, it is not a side kick. I was just thinking about how some put their foot down and always thought that they didn't have the balance to do the back kick. The first is not a back kick as I have seen people do it.

[Leto]

good to see your clips ... more sd people should share there practice and exchange ideas with others ...

if i may comment on your tai chi chuan ...

1. hands move with your center (meaning body moves not the arms)
2. study your weight transfer through a whole movement such as brush the knee or fair lady.
3. i think it is good to practice it at various speeds but more important than fast or slow is having your whole body connected and moving everything at once.
4. hip rotation + weight transfer (know the direction of your energy)it is very important.
5. avoid letting your hands move without your body moving
6. continuos movement one posture leads into the next.
7.the more mistakes in a posture the less power
link joints to create power



these are only some of my opinions :-) take it for what its worth and please keep sharing your stuff.

thanks for your input, these are things I will think about.

I, too, would like to see a demo of some of the basic material from a senior practicioner. The "real" way to perform these forms can't be some big secret that shouldn't be filmed, since they are taught to thousands of new students all over the country every year. Is there really a worry that someone will "steal" the forms?

wookie noticed my si men tao lian was performed a lot differently. The main thing which I did significantly differently than I was taught was that I made the hand techniques relaxed and whipping, rather than rigid chops. Also, my stepping was not in exaggerated low bow stance, but more of a san he/sanchin stance.

The only thing I really did on that performance of fei hu chu dong which was different was I focused on the elbows of the ripping motions instead of the hands, which made it a smaller motion. Also, I made the double arm drop (which was there when I first learned it but removed by the masters a year or so later), the double elbow double backfist move more fluid than normal, getting my back into the action (a little too much on that particular take, IMO). Sort of a wounded tiger feel, because it reminded me of the techniques in the black tiger form.

[Judge Pen]

So, as you step back you just strike forward with the left tiger claw ,are you using it as a deflect/block or a direct/ strike?? To the arm chest or face/ jaw??Are you pulling back with the right tiger claw?? Is this the obvious appl. and do you know of a hidden appl.?? I see the move as three different techniques happening in succession, prior to the three rips.

Not to be trite, but it's all three depending on the situation. When I was a freshly minted yellow, my first teacher taught the application as a simultaneous block and strike (much like short form number 1). That was fine for an introduction but the "block" doesn't make sens from an energy standpoint because its hard to deflect any strike with any real force behind it when stepping straight back--you would want to step back at an angle. It makes more sense to shed a 0 distance techniqe and to create distance while using the claw hand to strike and seperate (like a football stiff arm) In that instance it only makes sense to pull back with the right claw. Actually, the right claw stays in your perimeter, the backward action is from moving your body (you get better leverage that way and you gain momentum and energy to generate more power with the left claw because you are using opposing forces to your advantage).

I can think of a few more twists to this technique, but it's pretty straightforward.

[Judge Pen]

Double front snap kicks are a fantasy kick. You don't aim the first kick. It's a fake. You aim the second one at his head. Seriously, nobody in the world can generate power for two kicks in the air, hitting a target with any meat (besiides board breaking.......try it on a heavy bag sometime....LOL). If you hit with the first you don't have room for the second, and even if you did, it'd be just plain dumb because you'd land off balance. The first kick is performed standing mostly to fake and generate power for hte lift-off kick.

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

[Judge Pen]

You know, it is not a side kick. I was just thinking about how some put their foot down and always thought that they didn't have the balance to do the back kick. The first is not a back kick as I have seen people do it.

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

[Old Noob]

So, after you bow you just step backwards w/ the right leg into left forward bs and do the three " horizontal" rips???

We're taught:

1. Bow
2. Raise right leg, lift hands to shoulder-level in front, and step back into LBS tiger position. Performing that motion seems to create a single downward rake of sorts but it's a little wierd because that first movement is the only 'backward' movement of the form.
3. Then the horizontal rakes, etc., etc.

This post was referring to my notes. So I notice that we have ommitted the counter-clockwise movement of the right claw while sinking into the LBS. After the double elbows/backfist, we do back trap, back kick as JP said they do in VA.

[Judge Pen]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you.

[naja]

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

That's how it was explained to me. Land the first to the groin or stomach, second to the face if possible. And I would think if you did land the first one, then your forward momentum would be slowed enough to land the second one as well.


EDIT: After giving it some more thought, I can see both applications of it. If I was sparring someone, I could see Wookies interpretation working very well. On the street though, I'm going to try and make both kicks land if possible. Better to try both and miss one, then try only one and miss it.....

[MasterKiller]

I'll say that if your talking agout jumping and then trowing two kicks in the air in quick sucession, then that's only a fantasy, but that's not where I see the application.

The first kick is where the emphasis should be. If I land that properly, then the second kick is just for fun. The second kick is the back up plan in case the second one misses. If the first one lands, then the second one can be easily changed to a knee to compensate for differences in distances.

If you're taling about a double jump kick, I think the first kick is either a feint or used to break-open a block, and the second kick is the power kick.

[Judge Pen]

That's how it was explained to me. Land the first to the groin or stomach, second to the face if possible. And I would think if you did land the first one, then your forward momentum would be slowed enough to land the second one as well.


EDIT: After giving it some more thought, I can see both applications of it. If I was sparring someone, I could see Wookies interpretation working very well. On the street though, I'm going to try and make both kicks land if possible. Better to try both and miss one, then try only one and miss it.....

Have you ever seen a feinted first kick lead to a sucsessfully landed second kick? If so, its very rare. I don't like the idea of feints because it leads to wasted movement and it rarely works against anyone with any experience because they don't over-react to movement. There are tricky fighters out there to be sure, so it may have a place, but for me, if I make the first kick work then great. If it doesn't, you continue to follow through to the next technique.

[Judge Pen]

If you're taling about a double jump kick, I think the first kick is either a feint or used to break-open a block, and the second kick is the power kick.

I see the breaking open the block or forcing a reaction, but I don't like to characterize that as a feint, because feints don't have any real power to them. I will throw kicks at ones guard to force a reaction and open up a subsequent technique (like a double front snap kick) but the first kick has to be thrown with enough power and intent to make them react to it. If it has enough power to do that, then it would work well if it made it through the block and actually hit a target like the groin, bladder or stomach.

[Lamassu]

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

I was taught in Texas that the 'left back kick' you're talking about as a cross step for generating power with the right side kick, which you then swing like a pendulum into the double snap kick.

My old digital camera died on me last week, so I have to get another one and then I'll post vids of me doing Fei Hu Chu Tung and Se Mu Tao Lien.