Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

I was taught in Texas that the 'left back kick' you're talking about as a cross step for generating power with the right side kick, which you then swing like a pendulum into the double snap kick.

My old digital camera died on me last week, so I have to get another one and then I'll post vids of me doing Fei Hu Chu Tung and Se Mu Tao Lien.

No, I'm talking about a full back kick above the waist in height. I was taught the back trap the way you describe by my first teacher.

[Lamassu]

I see the breaking open the block or forcing a reaction, but I don't like to characterize that as a feint, because feints don't have any real power to them. I will throw kicks at ones guard to force a reaction and open up a subsequent technique (like a double front snap kick) but the first kick has to be thrown with enough power and intent to make them react to it. If it has enough power to do that, then it would work well if it made it through the block and actually hit a target like the groin, bladder or stomach.

I think a double snap kick is primarily one of those 'when-the-oppurtunity-presents-itself' kinda thing. I definetly see how the first kick could be used to break open the block, but the second kick is pretty much aimed in the same area and could be blocked as well. The problem with the double snap is that it telegraphs your intent too easily. In the end, the best way to avoid a double snap is with a mere L-step to your opponents outside, and he's suddenly open for a counter.

[Lamassu]

No, I'm talking about a full back kick above the waist in height. I was taught the back trap the way you describe by my first teacher.

???????

You mean a full back kick with the left leg instead of a cross step?

[Golden Tiger]

then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

Thats a pure Mst. Mullins variation. A good way to spot someone that has trained down there is to look for any back traps being thrown as full back (side) kicks. This is most apparent in the roads of Hua.

As for the out west variations....they are indeed different. Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

[Judge Pen]

Thats a pure Mst. Mullins variation. A good way to spot someone that has trained down there is to look for any back traps being thrown as full back (side) kicks. This is most apparent in the roads of Hua.

As for the out west variations....they are indeed different. Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

Yes it is. In Hua, you have to have freaky flexibility to actually make the backtrap a back kick that reaches above the waist as you cannot turn your hips toward the direction of the kick. In Fei Hu you can easily turn the hips so the form becomes almos a spinning back kick instead of the back-trap that seems to be done everywhere else.

[Judge Pen]

???????

You mean a full back kick with the left leg instead of a cross step?

Yes. See GT's very astute observation.

[Judge Pen]

GT,

Speaking of variations, check out this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btKvY6QY3tI


Interesting take on the opening move where this back-trap is located in our version.

[kungfujunky]

ive added tai peng

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g00tXwpycOM


but it is a poor vid

i usually am much much lower on stances....ill have to redo a bunch of these this weekend

and ill do tiger how i practice it so you can see the difference

thx for the input!

[tattooedmonk]

Not to be trite, but it's all three depending on the situation. When I was a freshly minted yellow, my first teacher taught the application as a simultaneous block and strike (much like short form number 1). That was fine for an introduction but the "block" doesn't make sens from an energy standpoint because its hard to deflect any strike with any real force behind it when stepping straight back--you would want to step back at an angle. It makes more sense to shed a 0 distance techniqe and to create distance while using the claw hand to strike and seperate (like a football stiff arm) In that instance it only makes sense to pull back with the right claw. Actually, the right claw stays in your perimeter, the backward action is from moving your body (you get better leverage that way and you gain momentum and energy to generate more power with the left claw because you are using opposing forces to your advantage).

I can think of a few more twists to this technique, but it's pretty straightforward.

Cool .I agree with your views Good stuff.

I like chin na so, I see it as someone has grabbed your left wrist , the left hand rise, the right hand grabs underneath as you step back and left tiger claw to the arm , face .

I am glad we are having disscussions like this . If they were all like this we would be at a1000 right now.

[tattooedmonk]

GT,

Speaking of variations, check out this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btKvY6QY3tI


Interesting take on the opening move where this back-trap is located in our version.

I like it because of the control.

[tattooedmonk]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you.

How so?????

[brucereiter]

Right, wrong...who's to say. Do what your teachers teaches then once understood, do what works.

with age comes wisdom ... good comment gt ...

[BM2]

We do a back kick down here in Tennessee. I was first taught this form in Virginia and it was the back-trap and back kick. Now after the double elbow, double fist, step up and step back into right bow, we turn and through left back kick (or side kick depending on how your hips turn) and then a right back kick before going into the double-front snap kick. I've been training in Tennessee for 8 years now, and that's how it has been done here since I've been training.

Yeah, the back trap, back kick is how I was taught too. I never liked it and would do to back kicks instead. But we didn't put our foot down between kicks.

[Leto]

Leto,

Is you SanHe done the was CSC teaches it? Were you doing it with full body tension? You versions of the form are very different then the was I know it.

Kudos for putting yourself out there. That's not easy. I'm not criticizing since any problems with how the form is taught is an issue that doesn't really involve me or you.

No, it is not the way I was taught. It is taught with full dynamic tension (until the attack sequence at the end). Another experiment, I was watching the way white crane and other southern styles practice their sanzhan/sanchin forms. Our movements are close to those others, so I decided to try it as a practice of jing instead of a body toughening exercise. I only had tension on the retraction, not the expansion. I was also trying to "feel" it as a crane form, rather than just a supplementary exercise as it tends to be treated at CSC.

[kwaichang]

As a close in tech the back trap is useful I have used it effectively when you trap the knee the opponent goes back or their leg is broken at the knee Then the side or back kick can be thrown I have used it this way. Also the hands can deflect a kick and the leg trap can close followed by the kick if thrown low the kick becomes a sweep at thigh level It works too. KC