Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

I don't think the forms stayed in stasis. I think they continue to change and evolve despite the best intentions to keep them consistent.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

Um, my kung fu left China in the 1940s.

[MasterKiller]

You still keep up with your Monk's Spade as well?

I play around with the rope dart now and then, but for the most part I don't have enough time to maintain all my weapons forms.

When I'm too old to fight I'll go back to them, which shouldn't be too far away.

[BlueTravesty]

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

I've always loved this theory. All those teachers fleeing communist china and teaching in hong kong, taiwan and the US were all "secret commies"

That's almost as good as Gabriel Chin's "Chen Style Tai Chi is a communist hoax" theory.

[WhiteEarp]

Good point. And correct.
Most masters fled china because of the (proven) witchhunt.
Communists are materialistic. So there is no space for "chi" and special "herbs".

But at one point they found out they lost a lot of tradition through this. So Wushu, a competition form was born.

And now some 30/40 odd years from the first wushu forms they want more traditional Kung Fu again because foreigners are taking a walk with them.

Why would so many foreigners would know kung fu, only one explanation. That a lot of masters migrated out of that communist hole.
Most traditional masters in those days could be found in Vietnam, Taiwan,Hong Kong, Indonesia or Thailland.(some mongolia)
It is no myth it is fact. Just search the internet on Chinese imigrants after WWII.

[sunfist]

Anyway, (okinawa) Karate is derived from White Crane.
I once saw a Sensei in Ishin Ryu(mix of sports and traditional karate)perform a form for me and my brother. And i recognized some of the techniques.

But i can see that the late grandmasters didn't tell everything to the japanese.
Some techniques they performed in their form are just plain "wrong" according to my teacher.

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

[synack]

I said before I wouldn't address the lineage argument. But reading through this thread... I now want to address it.

Here's my take:

Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No

Yes, I think Ie knew Kung fu and yes I think GM Sin knows Kung Fu. Do I think there was a legendary hairy monk? No, But that doesn't make it not Kung Fu. It does however make you wonder where the Kung Fu came from.

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

Do I like Shao-lin Tao? Yes, and I do not think it's Karate (I know ppl who have taken Karate). But, I do think people are rushed through forms way too much. I do work on everything I learn in my free time, usually at the gym when I'm not running or lifting.

But to conclude, only GM Sin or Hiang can answer any of this. And I think there are reasons that they aren't (either it isn't provable or it's a fabrication).

[WhiteEarp]

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

No And i'm not shaolin-do, there are no shaolin-do schools in holland.
Anyway. I do Choy Li Fut , yang style tai chi and hou quan, if you read some of my posts you would know this.

Anyway, example: a kick with the knifeedge of your foot against the knee. Now, a karate practicioner first liftshis foot up turns his hip in and then kicks to the knee.

This is the karate way.

Now the kung fu way. you keep your hip and body still and lift your foot up and kick with the knifeedge and imediatly put your feet back.
Cost less time. you don't use your hip and the oponent has more difficulty detecting your move. Were if a karateka would kick him "the karate way" he would imediately see him turn his waste/hip etc.

Now those are the little secrets the masters didn't tell the japanese! So in a "kung fu way" i would consider this wrong.

But in a general martial arts way there is one rule: there are no "wrong styles" it depends solely on the practicioner. So you've must have understood me wrong.
i love to watch okinawa karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN5IerC00 just much as i love to watch contemporary shaolin monks or MMA fights.

[MasterKiller]

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

I don't think Sin is necessarily the driving force behind the aggressive "Shaolin" marketing campaign. More like Bill Leonard and the SDA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

From my "limited" experience, the little I have seen looks like "karatefied kung fu".

Kind of crappy too.

[Baqualin]

I don't think Sin is necessarily the driving force behind the aggressive "Shaolin" marketing campaign. More like Bill Leonard and the SDA.

MK,
That statement makes absolutely no sense what so ever.
BQ

[Baqualin]

No And i'm not shaolin-do, there are no shaolin-do schools in holland.
Anyway. I do Choy Li Fut , yang style tai chi and hou quan, if you read some of my posts you would know this.

Anyway, example: a kick with the knifeedge of your foot against the knee. Now, a karate practicioner first liftshis foot up turns his hip in and then kicks to the knee.

This is the karate way.

Now the kung fu way. you keep your hip and body still and lift your foot up and kick with the knifeedge and imediatly put your feet back.
Cost less time. you don't use your hip and the oponent has more difficulty detecting your move. Were if a karateka would kick him "the karate way" he would imediately see him turn his waste/hip etc.

Now those are the little secrets the masters didn't tell the japanese! So in a "kung fu way" i would consider this wrong.

But in a general martial arts way there is one rule: there are no "wrong styles" it depends solely on the practicioner. So you've must have understood me wrong.
i love to watch okinawa karate http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbiN5IerC00 just much as i love to watch contemporary shaolin monks or MMA fights.

And while we're sorting through the BS on here your teacher was never a student of GM Ie.
BQ

[Judge Pen]

So when you see someone with a legitimate karate lineage perform a technique, which your shaolin do master does differently, your immediate conclusion is the karate guy is 'wrong'.

****ing brilliant.

White Earp doesn't do shaolin do, but he says that his teacher did train with Master Ie for a period of time in Indonesia. So don't lump SD in with him or him in with SD.

[Judge Pen]

I said before I wouldn't address the lineage argument. But reading through this thread... I now want to address it.

Here's my take:

Do I think the lineage is bull****? Yes and No

Yes, I think Ie knew Kung fu and yes I think GM Sin knows Kung Fu. Do I think there was a legendary hairy monk? No, But that doesn't make it not Kung Fu. It does however make you wonder where the Kung Fu came from.

Also I'd like to add that I think it is unfortunate that GM Sin knows these questions are constantly surrounding his school. Yet he leaves his students to answer what they cannot. If I ever have the chance to speak with him and the subject of his school comes up. I will ask about the lineage and explain what his students are having to defend. (something by which he brought out in the open and only he can prove). It takes a lack of due care to put your students in that place (IMHO). I consider myself to be under M Grooms not GM Sin. (until he clears up the cloudiness)

Do I like Shao-lin Tao? Yes, and I do not think it's Karate (I know ppl who have taken Karate). But, I do think people are rushed through forms way too much. I do work on everything I learn in my free time, usually at the gym when I'm not running or lifting.

But to conclude, only GM Sin or Hiang can answer any of this. And I think there are reasons that they aren't (either it isn't provable or it's a fabrication).

The thing is, Master Sin can't prove it either. Really, we know that there were more than one teacher in Indonesia and each of them taught their own stuff. Neither Master Hiang or GM The knew Su Kong Tai Djian; he reportedly died before either of them were born. If they were told about him, it would have to be from Ie and/or the other teachers there. Of course they would believe their teacher (or if they didn't I doubt they would have openly questioned him out of respect). So all the information they would have on Su Kong would be hearsay as well.

Ultimately whether Su Kong existed or didn't (in whatever capacity) is a little importance to me. There is no verifiable third-party accounts of Su Kong (although part of me would love for something like that to turn up--just to shake things up a bit). I do believe in GM The' and my teachers' ability and I think SD is a very good art. I've crossed hands with many people from differnt styles and backgrounds and, in those moments, arguments of lineage and flavor of forms seemed less important than the techniques that we were using at the time. I think that the people that I've crossed hands with came out of the encounter respecting me and what my teachers taught as I did with them and their teachers. I'm always willing to a friendly sparring session as that is what builds respect for each other and different styles. Isn't that what it should be about?

[Baqualin]

White Earp doesn't do shaolin do, but he says that his teacher did train with Master Ie for a period of time in Indonesia. So don't lump SD in with him or him in with SD.

JP,
If I ever need a Lawyer I'm calling you...your the most rational person on here. Hope all is well with the kids.
BQ