Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sean_stonehart]

I would like those as well if you don't mind.

Sure... just PM me a good email address & I'll zap it over.

[JSE]

PM sent.

[Old Noob]

Sure... just PM me a good email address & I'll zap it over.

Sean,

This is very interesting. Thank you so much. I've only looked over it in a cursory fashion but, at first blush, reading the book and visualizing the way the form was taught to me in my class, it seemed like the way I was taught was a reasonable interpretation of the form in the book. Then, for ****s and giggles, I youtubed some people doing the form and thats when I started to realize why people think GMT learned the form from a book. The differences are stark. Still, the more different versions of the same form I watched on youtube, the more differentiation I saw between practitioners. This lead me to believe that its equally likely that GMT learned the form from the book or from someone who had learned the form and then changed it in transmission.

I totally agree with the baseline assertion, though, that our form is derived from this form.

Thanks again for the book. It is super helpful.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean,

This is very interesting. Thank you so much. I've only looked over it in a cursory fashion but, at first blush, reading the book and visualizing the way the form was taught to me in my class, it seemed like the way I was taught was a reasonable interpretation of the form in the book. Then, for ****s and giggles, I youtubed some people doing the form and thats when I started to realize why people think GMT learned the form from a book. The differences are stark. Still, the more different versions of the same form I watched on youtube, the more differentiation I saw between practitioners. This lead me to believe that its equally likely that GMT learned the form from the book or from someone who had learned the form and then changed it in transmission.

I totally agree with the baseline assertion, though, that our form is derived from this form.

Thanks again for the book. It is super helpful.

Cool!! Glad you found it useful. As to the differences in differences on youtube between people, yep that happens. Everybody takes it & makes it their own. There will be differences on certain levels, but you can see that everybody is on the same page in large part.

[Judge Pen]

Sean,

This is very interesting. Thank you so much. I've only looked over it in a cursory fashion but, at first blush, reading the book and visualizing the way the form was taught to me in my class, it seemed like the way I was taught was a reasonable interpretation of the form in the book. Then, for ****s and giggles, I youtubed some people doing the form and thats when I started to realize why people think GMT learned the form from a book. The differences are stark. Still, the more different versions of the same form I watched on youtube, the more differentiation I saw between practitioners. This lead me to believe that its equally likely that GMT learned the form from the book or from someone who had learned the form and then changed it in transmission.

I totally agree with the baseline assertion, though, that our form is derived from this form.

Thanks again for the book. It is super helpful.

While its true there are variations, I've never seen anyone else step the way SD does in BaGua. To me, I think this is evidence of learning it from a book as you can get the basic postures and rules, but the transitions are something that have to be taught with guidance to get the right flow and movement. Just my two cents.

[Old Noob]

While its true there are variations, I've never seen anyone else step the way SD does in BaGua. To me, I think this is evidence of learning it from a book as you can get the basic postures and rules, but the transitions are something that have to be taught with guidance to get the right flow and movement. Just my two cents.

I think that's right. Like Sean said, the other guys are at least on the same page. To torture the pun, we're in the same book but in an entirely different chapter.

[kwaichang]

I have seen 3 different ways of the SD people stepping in the Pa Kua so what way do you speak of I know Master Mullins steps one way Master Leonard another and the Colorado people another ? Interesting. KC

[bodhi warrior]

While its true there are variations, I've never seen anyone else step the way SD does in BaGua. To me, I think this is evidence of learning it from a book as you can get the basic postures and rules, but the transitions are something that have to be taught with guidance to get the right flow and movement. Just my two cents.

There are numerous ways to step in bagua. Snake step, lion step, chicken step, etc. Everyone has their preferred method. Most people I've seen in SD seem to use a combination of lion and chicken. The problem I've seen with their method is that they bounce up and down when they step. I learned "classical pa kua" in '85 or '86 before sin the' became stiff from the weights and steroids. He seemed to move more relaxed.
I've seen just about every video, and read almost every book in English on this form. Everybody does it different. And that's ok. My bagua will not look like your bagua. You have to make it your own.

[sean_stonehart]

There are numerous ways to step in bagua. Snake step, lion step, chicken step, etc. Everyone has their preferred method. Most people I've seen in SD seem to use a combination of lion and chicken. The problem I've seen with their method is that they bounce up and down when they step. I learned "classical pa kua" in '85 or '86 before sin the' became stiff from the weights and steroids. He seemed to move more relaxed.
I've seen just about every video, and read almost every book in English on this form. Everybody does it different. And that's ok. My bagua will not look like your bagua. You have to make it your own.

While this is true, you should look like where you came from even after making it your own. Somebody should be able to look at you & discern where you learned.

[Syn7]

I can go with that.

If you were given the choice, what would you name SD? Aside from the ones that are taken by breakaways and the expelled. The latter is the curse of all MA's. Every decent teacher has a story of some dick who attended like 20 classes then started teaching. It's unbelievable what some people will do and what some people will swallow. Those types are a special class of delusional where mere words will never be adequate.

Would you give SD an Indonesian name? Or something more appropriate to the style. There are MANY arts who trace their roots to Shaolin(true or not). MANY. Once so far removed, when other arts are blended, it becomes it's own thing. Don't you think calling it Shaolin do is a bit of a misnomer? I'm curious. You are somebody who is honest about the murkyness, but knows the system well enough to know what it is and isn't. I'm not really interested in SD the actual content. I'm interested in the lineage, just not enough to actually put in the work. I'm not here to criticize the work you put in. I get why you wouldn't want to start over at this point.

Bak Mei traces it's roots to Shaolin in a very unusual story. Much drama. Mastery, betrayal, murder. Some 007 type shit. I take it with a grain of salt. I think it's aptly named even though it's most likely different and there are two distinct branches I am familiar with and a couple others I'm not so familiar with. That's why I look at CLC as the founder of CLC Bak Mei. That way he's owning it and owning the fact that it is distinct from others in the fam. Dude was badass and much is well documented as it wasn't really that long ago. Lot's of pics and records. I have no need for the fairy tale version. It was a cool movie though. Good story. Fun for the lil ones.

[Old Noob]

If you were given the choice, what would you name SD?

This is a good question. Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with the name. Shaolin Do meaning, in the simplest of translations, the way of Shaolin isn't, in and of itself, deceiving. In fact, as an Indonesian hybrid, containing elements of TCMA, JMA, and indiginous martial arts, the Chinese word/Japanese word dichotomy captures it nicely. It's an hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking. If we could divorce the name from the phony history, it actually isn't that bad. In fact, if Sin The had called it Shaolin Do Indonesian Kung Fu or Shaolin Do Kun Tao (what a name!), and hadn't made up the BS temple stories, I'm not sure anyone would have groused. Do any Bruce Lee historians know whether people quibbled with the name of Jeet Kun Do?

[sean_stonehart]

Keep it simple...

The' Family martial arts. Drop all the trappings & stories & such...

[Snipsky]

This is a good question. Honestly, I don't have much of a problem with the name. Shaolin Do meaning, in the simplest of translations, the way of Shaolin isn't, in and of itself, deceiving. In fact, as an Indonesian hybrid, containing elements of TCMA, JMA, and indiginous martial arts, the Chinese word/Japanese word dichotomy captures it nicely. It's an hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking. If we could divorce the name from the phony history, it actually isn't that bad. In fact, if Sin The had called it Shaolin Do Indonesian Kung Fu or Shaolin Do Kun Tao (what a name!), and hadn't made up the BS temple stories, I'm not sure anyone would have groused. Do any Bruce Lee historians know whether people quibbled with the name of Jeet Kun Do?

I don't like the sounds of this here. it sounds like, "so what, we borrowed things from other styles, we stole others material, we say we're kung fu, and we wear karate uniforms. the public will never know the truth, so forget what they think. all that matters is what we think."

hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking? you are glorifying the thievery at the hands of Sin The.



to be honest, it truly disgusts me to the highest level of disgustivity.

[Old Noob]

I don't like the sounds of this here. it sounds like, "so what, we borrowed things from other styles, we stole others material, we say we're kung fu, and we wear karate uniforms. the public will never know the truth, so forget what they think. all that matters is what we think."

hommage to a lifestyle and way of thinking? you are glorifying the thievery at the hands of Sin The.



to be honest, it truly disgusts me to the highest level of disgustivity.

I'm doing no such thing. I've been nothing but critical of the lying and the stories. As for the system - and I'm really not talking about the forms that were added later - I'm just saying that I wouldn't have had a problem with that system being called Shaolin Do. The name Shaolin Do doesn't, in and of itself, make any representation about the origins or the content of the system. Similarly, neither does Shorin Ryu karate or Jeet Kun Do. You can be disgusted all you want but I'm disgusted and humored, all at the same time, that the majority of your disgust derives from your lack of reading comprehension skills. I'll say it one more time: I think it is deplorable that Sin The made up origins for the material that is legitimately from his system and stole forms from outside his system and lied about the origins of those forms. That view is not inconsistent with the view that the name "Shaolin Do," when applied to a system of martial arts, is not necessarily misleading or bad.

But you can be disgusted as much as you want. In addition to the fact that you're disgusted about a position I didn't take, I just don't care about some internet stranger's level of disgust.

[hskwarrior]

The name Shaolin Do doesn't, in and of itself, make any representation about the origins or the content of the system.

in my opinion it does. Shaolin Do was the first school i heard with that name and IMMEDIATELY i said that sounds like a karate school wanting to be kung fu. low and behold. LOL.