View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #5971
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erasmus Mingatt View Post
    "Dear Gene,
    Please don't ban me."

    I have to seem hyper defensive about SD to everyone or my SD teachers wont promote me to the next level. Without adequate a-s kissing I'll stay at this level of a "style" whose history and foundation are "iffy" at best. But if I attack anyone who objectively raises an eyebrow at the claims made by the founders...then I will gain their respect.
    Ever read any of my posts? Except for one early attempt to move this discussion to more constructive subjects, I've stayed pretty much completely out of this one 'cause it always regresses into the mind-bogglingly boring repetitions of years-old arguments that you've been spouting for the last few pages.

    But I couldn't resist calling you on that groveling post you just made since it so completely undermined the air of big-man authority you've been projecting in your other posts.
    Meanwhile, I'll be looking for God in this box of Cheerios - Crushing Fist

  2. #5972
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    Still Waiting

    I'm still waiting for someone to explain what "flavor" the drunken form clip was missing. As usual it was the typical "looks like a karate guy trying to do kung fu" comment. Sorry, but I've seen other supposedly "legit" TCMA vids that made that drunken form look like a TCMA forms champ. So other than it's a SD guy doing the form, what "flavor" are you guys looking for?
    "Repugnant is a creature that would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of it's fleeting time here." - Tool

    www.bentmonk.com

  3. #5973
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    Quote Originally Posted by BentMonk View Post
    I'm still waiting for someone to explain what "flavor" the drunken form clip was missing. As usual it was the typical "looks like a karate guy trying to do kung fu" comment. Sorry, but I've seen other supposedly "legit" TCMA vids that made that drunken form look like a TCMA forms champ. So other than it's a SD guy doing the form, what "flavor" are you guys looking for?
    I'll say the guy's flow was a little off (transitions from one technique to another was a bit choppy), but his technique was impeccable and his athleticisms was something to be admired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  4. #5974
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    this was posted in the thread about the southern shaolin temple, but I find it may be pertinent here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWxDEftPzTo

    especially note the guy who does a form at around 1:00, and the old guy who starts at about 2:03. Is this not Chinese martial arts? What style are they doing, and is their "flavor" correct? Are these supposed to be examples of styles that are descended from the southern temple, so are being exhibited at the new temple built there?

    Both of them, especially the old guy, have "karate" like elements. Is it because those are from five ancestor fist, which was a major influence in some Okinawan karate styles? five ancestor fist is one of those southern shaolin styles. How come it's flow and flavor isn't the same as the northern shaolin longfist styles?

    If the old guy was wearing a gi, would you assume his style was Chinese?
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  5. #5975
    interesting observations ... hmmmm ?
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  6. #5976
    This is from the Quangzhou Southern Temple. Not from the one built by the government that does wushu. The demos are what you see there and what you see in the general area. These guys can hit. They look like martial arts guys instead of dancers.

  7. #5977
    [QUOTE]I'll say the guy's flow was a little off (transitions from one technique to another was a bit choppy), QUOTE]

    Master Grooms taught him how to do martial arts. However, Steve learned that form from EM Mullins - hence the transition and choppiness issues-- but that is to expected in the TN forms.

  8. #5978
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    [QUOTE=Chain Whip;775206]
    I'll say the guy's flow was a little off (transitions from one technique to another was a bit choppy), QUOTE]

    Master Grooms taught him how to do martial arts. However, Steve learned that form from EM Mullins - hence the transition and choppiness issues-- but that is to expected in the TN forms.
    I thought it was more of a personal expression. I don't think TN forms are that choppy, but I might be a bit to close to be objective. As a Tennessean, I do have my kwan dao form out on youtube. Its not great (personal expression issues of my own) but I don't think you could call it choppy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  9. #5979
    i think the "choppyness" described in the drunken form is just his interpretation of "drunken style" i have seen many variations of this style that express that type of movement.

    are there any other "drunken" clips that express the attributes some say are lacking

    i do not practice this style so can only comment on it from what i know ...



    best,

    bruce
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  10. #5980
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    @Baqualin:

    A-h. O that's right everything my master taught is fake. I made it all up.
    Again baqualin. Ask your master this: Does he know Sifu Tze?
    Otherwise known as: Prins Dschero Khan Chen Tao-Tze

    Chen Tao-Tze was the name given to a small boy who was taught by the same monks who fled to Mongolia to train with Chewbacca.(excuse me, Sukong) On their way back they took the child and trained him in the art of Lueng Chuen.(in the mean time he watched the monks do excerzises)
    He is also known is Sifu Meijers(dutch since he was adopted later by a dutch armyguy name Gerard Karel Meijers. Indonesia was still a dutch colony back then)

    Now here's where my master comes in.
    Years later after my master trained in Indonesia he returned to holland.
    But nobody in Holland taught Kung Fu(yes well there was judo jiujitsu and some karate) but he heard of a guy that was teaching Kempo. It was a new and popular thing.

    This guy was Sifu Tze. He watched my master do some excerzises and recognized the moves he did. Those are the same moves as the monks practiced when they fled China with Sifu Tze.

    They are now long time friends and Sifu Tze is a well kown(old)martial artist in Germany and Holland.
    Allbite he looks a bit like a Chinese version "B.A." at the moment.

    And again. If my master was never in Indonesia and made all of this up. How come he knows so much? Check this story it's all over the internet. Just google "Sifu Tze".

    Another thing: an -ex policeofficer from hong kong (he died a while ago) who started a chinese restaurant in holland was also thaught by the same group in Indonesia in the art of monkey.

    This style was apparently so secret that only now a handfull of practitioners are still alive. (we only get thaught 70% of this style. The rest is tiger and dragon. for the same reason i guess, i don't think any of his students will ever learn the complete style)
    I believe the story was that le chang ming never thaught any of this style on a regular basis to random pupils.

    And i can see why. If he did it would be another "+400 forms!" and the whole secret would be gone. They have a fued with eachother and they, allbite a good school, probably make more than a good living out of it.

    And on the thing why he probably doesn't recognize my master, my father is a teacher at highschool and well after 35 years of teaching he doesn't remember all the faces that passed by him in all those years.

    But to make it clear, i never in my short years of practicing martial arts and visiting a couple of different schools, met a better teacher than my Sifu.
    The guy is beginning to age but still rocks my socks of with his abilities. And i don't think someone who just makes stuff up to look good will be as good as he.

    So next time you doubt this story first ask questions before shooting okay?
    Last edited by WhiteEarp; 07-03-2007 at 03:16 AM.
    How about Wookiestyle?
    With this style you can pull people's arms out of their sockets if you loose.
    That would remind them to change there strategy, and let you win.

  11. #5981
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    There is great debate as to what creates the 'flavor' of CMA. Before I dive into this, let me point out that my training is both in CMA and IMA - the IMA having Chinese roots, but evolving into something different.

    The challenge SD faces is one of history and veracity. It is very common for some CMA to have blended with Karate during the last century. The history of art transmission is one of secrecy and holding back - so each generation often needs to beg, borrow and steal to figure out what to do. (This is not true of all schools or students, but the general population). Indonesia is a very adaptive place with wide ranges of influences a incorporations of ideas and methods. It is not unusual to see cross-cultural blends of methods - despite the strong cultural barriers against it, oddly enough.

    In China, TCMA is very reflective of the culture it developed in. There are specific flavors and styles of body motion that are not natural, but practiced and refined. You can get some idea of this by reading Adam Hsu's writings.


    SD moves like Karate. It just does. CMA, even the styles karate evolved from, do not. So, if it moves and trains like Karate, yet claims to be the 'true' Shaolin style, there is obviously a veracity issue.

    I could care less about SD if it just represented itself as another 'cobinasi' style, but it does not, and instead makes claims as an organization that mislead and defraud the public.

    THAT, is where most people on this board ended up. Mixed-up languages, karate gis, none of that stuff really matters, but honesty still does.

    Now, Sin The' may believe all of this stuff. He probably does, in which case, the level ogf deceit is less manipulative. Personally, I'd like to meet the guy and discuss his training in Indonesia.

    This is a tired thread. Perhaps the best thing to come out of it is Judge Pen proving that the system has honorable and intelligent players.
    www.kungnation.com

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  12. #5982
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    There is great debate as to what creates the 'flavor' of CMA.


    SD moves like Karate. It just does.
    i practice shaolin do ... here are 27 different videos of me practicing as i was taught in shaolin do http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

    i must ask what part of what i do looks like karate? when i was a boy i trained "park district" karate for a short time and in my travels i have visited and met with many karate people the body method is not the same as what i do. i can only speak for my self based on my own understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    Now, Sin The' may believe all of this stuff. He probably does, in which case, the level ogf deceit is less manipulative. Personally, I'd like to meet the guy and discuss his training in Indonesia.
    you should contact him and ask respectfully what ever you need to know. just like anyone else you can find his contact info on the internet.

    i suppose he will do one of 2 things. answer your questions or not answer them 50/50 chance ...


    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    This is a tired thread. Perhaps the best thing to come out of it is Judge Pen proving that the system has honorable and intelligent players.
    jp is a good guy:-)

    best,

    bruce

    p.s. i do not claim mastery over any martial art ... i am just somewhere along my path.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  13. #5983
    SD moves like Karate. It just does. CMA, even the styles karate evolved from, do not. So, if it moves and trains like Karate, yet claims to be the 'true' Shaolin style, there is obviously a veracity issue.
    China is a big place and an old culture with countless dialects, types of food and other cultural norms. It would be very naïve to believe that while there is no single correct way to cook rice in China, for some reason there is only one way to flavor the movements in supposedly traditional forms.

    Most of the time I have seen forms presented as traditional CMA it looks just like wushu to me. The same emphasis on performance, the dramatic posing, the sacrifice of function in the name of form, a complete lack of understanding of the type of power they should be attempting to generate, a lack of power in general – especially snapping power and no understanding of what the timing of the techniques would have to be if they were being applied in combat.

    One way of looking at it is: There is the modern, highly acrobatic, highly structured competitive wushu. Also, there is the “modern” traditional CMA which is what will be well accepted at a CMA tournament. It may as well be called wushu without the acrobatics. And there is old traditional CMA, that is not performance oriented. It places the highest premium on body mechanics to deliver force – not present a flavor.

    We are accused of being karate like in our movements. Maybe we should take that as a compliment. At least karate guys can hit. Our desire to make techniques powerful and to snap what should snap is part of what makes it traditional. We look at traditional as meaning - “Would I practice like this if tomorrow I was stepping on a battlefield?” Look at most of the “Northern Shaolin” forms you see performed today. Do you really think people preparing for war practiced like that? I can see the “drill sergeant” screaming at the soldier “BOY YOU NEED TO GET SOME MORE FLAVOR IN YOUR TECHNIQUES. YOU NEED TO PREEN AND POSE A LOT MORE. AND FOR BUDDHAS SAKE STOP TRYING TO HIT WITH SPEED AND POWER - YOU LOOK TOO KARATE LIKE!”

    The laws of physics don’t change because someone thinks a little flavor would help influence the judges. Flavor doesn’t hit hard – proper body mechanics do.

  14. #5984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Whip View Post
    China is a big place and an old culture with countless dialects, types of food and other cultural norms. It would be very naïve to believe that while there is no single correct way to cook rice in China, for some reason there is only one way to flavor the movements in supposedly traditional forms.

    Most of the time I have seen forms presented as traditional CMA it looks just like wushu to me. The same emphasis on performance, the dramatic posing, the sacrifice of function in the name of form, a complete lack of understanding of the type of power they should be attempting to generate, a lack of power in general – especially snapping power and no understanding of what the timing of the techniques would have to be if they were being applied in combat.

    One way of looking at it is: There is the modern, highly acrobatic, highly structured competitive wushu. Also, there is the “modern” traditional CMA which is what will be well accepted at a CMA tournament. It may as well be called wushu without the acrobatics. And there is old traditional CMA, that is not performance oriented. It places the highest premium on body mechanics to deliver force – not present a flavor.

    We are accused of being karate like in our movements. Maybe we should take that as a compliment. At least karate guys can hit. Our desire to make techniques powerful and to snap what should snap is part of what makes it traditional. We look at traditional as meaning - “Would I practice like this if tomorrow I was stepping on a battlefield?” Look at most of the “Northern Shaolin” forms you see performed today. Do you really think people preparing for war practiced like that? I can see the “drill sergeant” screaming at the soldier “BOY YOU NEED TO GET SOME MORE FLAVOR IN YOUR TECHNIQUES. YOU NEED TO PREEN AND POSE A LOT MORE. AND FOR BUDDHAS SAKE STOP TRYING TO HIT WITH SPEED AND POWER - YOU LOOK TOO KARATE LIKE!”

    The laws of physics don’t change because someone thinks a little flavor would help influence the judges. Flavor doesn’t hit hard – proper body mechanics do.
    YES!!!!!!!!
    BQ

  15. #5985
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteEarp View Post
    @Baqualin:

    .

    So next time you doubt this story first ask questions before shooting okay?
    lets put it this way, I'm not questioning your teachers ability or knowledge, I'm only saying Grand Master Ie, personally, never taught non Chinese, period
    Maybe he was a student of M. Hiang's
    Last edited by Baqualin; 07-03-2007 at 05:07 PM.

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