Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

I originally saw JRQ Ba Gua at a SD school. The stepping was not up and down. The foot lifted only a couple of inches off the ground. The explanation from the 64 Rules was the one about “Rise the Foot Rub the Muscle” if I remember correctly.

The important explanation for why to avoid lifting your foot way up was; each inch you pick the foot up requires an inch of travel back down. If the transfer of energy was about putting force into the ground then lifting the foot up several inches might make sense. However, the transfer of energy is about propelling your body through space to travel from one point on earth to another.

In other words if the foot goes up 12 inches then forward 24 inches then down 12 inches you have 48 inches of foot travel (it’s probably closer to 36 inches of travel because the directional changes are not 90 degree angles) If the foot goes up 2 out 24 and down 2 it’s only 28 inches of travel. (probably actually 26 inches) The extra 10 inches of movement do nothing except slow you down.

Your explanation makes perfect sense, but I have trouble squaring it with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry7Dd3E_ct4

[RJ797]

I do too.

I was taught the movements along with a clear explanation of the 64 Rules and a good dose of logical analysis of body mechanics. There was never any discussion about doing like Sin The'

[Judge Pen]

I do too.

I was taught the movements along with a clear explanation of the 64 Rules and a good dose of logical analysis of body mechanics. There was never any discussion about doing like Sin The'

My guess is that your teacher did some independant study and started incorporating proper BaGua mechanics.

[RJ797]

Good guess.

[Empty_Cup]

I do too.

I was taught the movements along with a clear explanation of the 64 Rules and a good dose of logical analysis of body mechanics. There was never any discussion about doing like Sin The'

Same here...

[arinathos.valin]

Look at what happens when you don't check on a thread in a year...

First off, a wave to TM, Shaolin wookie, Bruce, Sean, and KC whom I remember from this forum from way back and a special tip of the hat to Judge Pen. I can't recall anywhere on this 1000 page thread where he lost his cool and was anything but cordial. Nicely done, sir.

I'm glad this thread hasn't been deleted. Even though much of it is a cyclical rehash, if you're patient enough to wade through everything it truly documents the magic of "pooled resources and minds." When this thread first popped up there were far more people who were unabashed supporters of SKT and took everything he said at his word. People who raised issues were often given the ALL CAPS reply in their defense of SD. Fast forward to now when we've looked at the temple origin claims and have found Cheng Man Ching, Jiang Rong Qiao, and Doc Fai Wong among who knows what else as the truth in origins. His defenders on this forum can't really argue these points, nor can they discount his damaging testimony in his lawsuit. They're stuck saying that he's a really nice guy and that he's been good to them. Unfortunately, the half-truths and tall tales that have been told over the years are now coming home to roost. If the head instructor can't be honest where this stuff comes from, how can others trust what else he has to say?

I looked at some of hskwarrior's demos and am impressed. His CLF has a lot of fluidity and way more full body motion/body mechanics than what is done in the SD versions. He can be abrasive, but then again he's pretty angry that not only did SKT steal the CLT form and not give credit, he and his students are doing a *******ized version of it that has none of the proper body mechanics and pawning it off as the real thing. I saw the clips of SKT doing Chen Taiji, and it was really embarrassing...nothing at all like the performances of Chen Bing, Ren GuangYi, or Chen XiaoWang except on the most superficial level.

(Side note though. His ribbing about gis at a funeral is juvenile. People mourn in their own fashion, and if the widow wants gis for his pallbearers then that's the most important thing. Serious ego issues going on.)

Here's the issue with forms. Not only do they teach you applications, they also teach you the underlying body mechanics that are crucial to understanding and executing the style. If you don't understand and internalize the body mechanics, you will have lost the most important thing the form is teaching. If you not only don't have the body mechanics, but change the performance of the form to substandard or detrimental body mechanics, WHY are you learning or teaching the form in the first place? Karatefying a xingyi form or Taiji form wrecks the underlying mechanics you're trying to train.

Now there are some masters who do their forms where they "look" plain but their body mechanics are just a lot more subtle (there's a reason internal arts are called "internal"). Cheng Man Ching is one of the first that comes to mind with this. With every clip of SKT that I've watched, I really don't get that feeling.

There were some good things I learned during my time in SD, but much of it had to be retooled extensively when I found other sources showing more advanced body mechanics (I'm thinking primarily of the Jiang Bagua form). I think it should be plainly obvious that a "grandmaster" should have those body mechanics inherent in his form, and I just don't see it.

[arinathos.valin]

Oh, for JP regarding Richard Clear...I've seen some of his stuff on YouTube. Hard to say for sure, but he certainly says the right things and the stuff I've looked at tells me he's got the right stuff. If I was in the area I'd check him out. Let us know what you find if you do.

[hskwarrior]

(Side note though. His ribbing about gis at a funeral is juvenile. People mourn in their own fashion, and if the widow wants gis for his pallbearers then that's the most important thing. Serious ego issues going on.)

LOL. i dropped that. but looking back, i was reacting on anger and disgust more than common sense. i admit that. they talked about wu de....but tried to overlook the fact of what ST did. that disgusted me even more. i'm dik when i'm ****ed and everyone is a victim because i don't normally get ****ed like that. old news now.

ps i was so ****ed that if jake lived in SF, you would have heard it on the news on what would have happened over this.

but thanks for your kind words on the demo's and such.

[Syn7]

LOL. i dropped that. but looking back, i was reacting on anger and disgust more than common sense. i admit that. they talked about wu de....but tried to overlook the fact of what ST did. that disgusted me even more. i'm dik when i'm ****ed and everyone is a victim because i don't normally get ****ed like that. old news now.

ps i was so ****ed that if jake lived in SF, you would have heard it on the news on what would have happened over this.

but thanks for your kind words on the demo's and such.

You should smoke more. Maybe put an extra hour and a half on the bag.


I don't know how normal this is, but when I get upset I get over it really fast. People don't believe me. If it's small and dumb I'm over it in seconds. If it's bad but I have no control over it, I can let it go till something else reminds me that it pisses me off. When it's aggressively in my face, I react a lil harsh sometimes, but I get over it in a very short time. And it's more of a calculated harsh, not a spaz. If I see that an aggressive solution could make the problem go away immediately, I may choose that. But there are so many variables, you have to be careful. Especially when it comes to violence. You have to protect yourself more than just physically.

I find this to be a good thing in most of my life, but not with the woman. I'm sure you can already imagine the argument. lol.

Protecting yourself legally reminds me of when I took a charge for winning a fight I didn't start because of how I handled it after I got the upper hand. I could have left, but I was like "Nah fuck it, I'm committed now"... What most people saw was me smashing a car window and dragging a guy out and down. I never saw these people before, they rolled up, two jumped out. I caught the first one clean after he knocked my friend down and the second one as he was halfway out of the car door. After I kicked the door closed on the guy, I should have bounced out. We all got charged by the crown. And I got a mischief charge and a few other minor things that were, of course, dropped. One small tiny decision, very annoying consequences. It was bad because I was on trial for real charges, that didn't help. It didn't affect the other trial and I managed to put it back far enough that it couldn't even be brought up, but I was remanded. 7 months in freakin pretrial all over some shit I didn't care about w/ people I didn't know. Pretrial SUCKS! After a few weeks you are thinking, my god send me to real prison... PLEASE! The only place more annoying than pretrial was the SHU.

[Syn7]

Look at what happens when you don't check on a thread in a year...

Damn, how much did you read? I couldn't even make it through your whole post. Not trying to be mean, I'm just sayin... Damn, that's a lot of reading. I'm a reader and I go through books like water, but I just don't have the patience to actually ready all of the words in here. I scan and stop, scan and stop. I gloss over about 90% of it tho.

[arinathos.valin]

Hey Syn7. Yes, I say it to my shame that I have pretty much read all 1200 pages at some point in time, although I skimmed through some of the one-liners. It's like a soap opera, or eating a bag of really good potato chips. Once you start it's hard to stop...

HSK, I wonder why you're still here. I don't mean that in a jerk kinda way. You've got a solid traceable lineage, significant martial skills, and you've done the research so you know your stuff cold. You've presented information on how SD has purloined the CLF form and is doing it poorly, and I think you've convinced most of the level-headed people here that you're probably right (right now it's hard to take SKT at his word at this point). I know you'd like SD to make the blanket statement about how a CLF form got into the system, but most of the people on this forum are no longer true 'kool aid' drinkers and don't have the pull to force SKT to be able to undo decades of storytelling. Are you here because you enjoy watching the slow-motion train wreck... or is there something else?

[hskwarrior]

HSK, I wonder why you're still here. I don't mean that in a jerk kinda way. You've got a solid traceable lineage, significant martial skills, and you've done the research so you know your stuff cold.

its like a terrible car crash. u don't really wanna look, but can't help it. believe me, i don't do it cause i want to. i need an intervention. LOL

[Syn7]

Hey Syn7. Yes, I say it to my shame that I have pretty much read all 1200 pages at some point in time, although I skimmed through some of the one-liners. It's like a soap opera, or eating a bag of really good potato chips. Once you start it's hard to stop...

HA! Doncha hate that!!! I'm like that with popcorn. Doesn't matter how much there is or how hungry I am. I will eat it till it's done.

[Judge Pen]

arinathos.valin,

Thanks for the kind words, but I do lose my temper often; I just get over it quickly and I wait until I'm objective before posting. Sometimes I have to wait longer than others.

Syn7, you had posted quite a while about lawyers. I now have a little insight into your perspective on the judicial system. I could not agree more with your point that there are too many people that go to law school that have no business being there. That schools, and the legally market are saturated. It has lowered the quality of the profession as a whole. I know lawyers that I wouldn't want to wash my pick-up truck.

But don't confuse discussion and debate here with legal argument or reasoning. It's very different. For one, though I have an opponent in court, I'm not trying to convince my opponent I am correct; I'm trying to convince a (hopefully) neutral and unbiased judge or jury. It's very different to try to convince someone coming from limited knowledge of a perspective then trying to convince somone with a strong feeling or perspective that they are wrong. There are very few here, myslef included, who is neutral and unbiased. 2nd, my arguments as a profession are governed by rules of evidence and procedure; rules that are enforced by a trained third-party (i.e. the judge). My sucess, in large part, depends on my knowledge of these rules, and the thousands of cases that interpret them and the substantive areas of law that I may be dealing with at the time, and my opponents lesser knowledge of the same. All of that then gets factored into argument and presentation.

What we have here is the logic of argument, unfiltered with our own biases, and wide open with little to no rules or procedure, or ways to enforce them. Though I enjoy the arguments here, and you Syn7 are a very talented debator for certain, its very different than what I do for a living.

[Syn7]

Ha, believe me... I understand the difference. lol.

I was mostly kidding around when I called law school babysitters for directionless postgrads. But the ratio is starting to get a lil ridiculous. For every engineer we have, there are like 4000 lawyers. Sad.

Well, I guess we have one guy to make shit, and 4000 to explain how you can use it and not go to jail!




Actually, it's funny, I've made so many gadgets that are illegal for all sorts of reasons. Some good, some bad. I'm sure I'm on a terror watch list somewhere because of the stuff I get in the mail. Not so much the parts, but the chemicals must raise some eyebrows somewhere. My wave jammer could be misused forsure. But I find it comforting that I can walk into a room full of people on cell phones and push one button and all of em drop out till I decide to turn it off. I just built it for practice really. You really gotta think it through before you push that button. Not for legal reasons, but for certain services. You can really mess people up. Emergency communications, traffic control, stuff like that. If you turned it on and just walked around the city it could cause serious problems and possibly injury or death. Easy to make though. Not illegal to have, just to use. Or sell.