View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #496
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    Re: Re: Judge Pen

    Originally posted by MasterKiller
    But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide.
    so true MK. they can always hide by me then
    Quote Originally Posted by Psycho Mantis View Post
    Genes too busy rocking the gang and scarfing down bags of cheetos while beating it to nacho ninjettes and laughing at the ridiculous posts on the kfforum. In a horse stance of course.

  2. #497
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    Geez

    You go and have knee surgery and see what happens to these threads. . .

    A couple of comments:

    1. Pedro Sanchez: I think I've read the thread that you were discussing and I'm sorry if some SD students didn't represent themselves well. However, that can be said for any style that has people that feel passionately about their art. I've been flamed away just because I study SD and not say BJJ, but I don't judge the art based upon the rantings of an anonymous internet "ambassador."

    2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

    3. Yu Shan and Hua Lin: Thanks for the kind words about SD. I wish more people shared your perspective. I like to think that I work hard regardless of arguments of lineage and origin.

    4. MK and shaolinlueb: Speaking of which, I have a new girlfriend. . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  3. #498
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    Originally posted by Judge Pen

    2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.
    Yeah, I hear you. I agree with what you wear doesn't dictate what style you train. I do feel that what style you train dictates what you represent. As it has been said a hundred times before, "Shaolin" is a very broad term that just about any style of MA can pretty much say they are Shaolin based. Lets face it, the real Shaolin vs none Shaolin, real monk vs fake monk debates probably don't mean a hell of a lot to the average martial artist. There are tons of martial artists that probably read these posts and say why the heck does the name Shaolin matter anyway? It does mean something to the ones like myself that do train in Shaolin that are not just learning Wushu. I grow tired of reading about "Shaolin is just wushu" stuff. There IS a difference. It's just up to you if whether or not you want to search for the answers.

    Getting back to the post....the belt ranks, American expectations, and the japanese term association changes what real traditional Shaolin represents. I believe when you change something, modify or add new things the traditional aspect is lost. I see this in many "Shaolin" named styles. I recognize some of the moves as Shaolin kung fu but the rest was either added or modified. I don't see a problem with certain styles changing certain things...it just shouldn't be called Shaolin. So now that Shaolin is in a middle of a trademark battle it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

  4. #499
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    I see SD has having roots in shaolin, but almost any style can say that. So it's called shaolin-"do" (which is a japanese term but pronouned and means the same as tao a Chinese term.) So they name acknowledges that it is a way of shaolin. Is it the only way? Apparently not. Has it been modified? All you have to do is look at the material and how it is performed to know the answer to that. It's changed and evolved differently. It has incorporated techniques and forms that aren't traditional shaolin. But, in my experience it is effective for art, health, and martial ability. It is kung fu that has evolved through a path from China to Indonesia to Kentucky. And things change with time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  5. #500
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    The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
    Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
    1.) Chan philosophy
    2.) Martial Art
    3.) Health

    For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

    A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
    1. Buddha (Master)
    2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
    3. Sangha (family/community)

    B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
    1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
    2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
    3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

    C. Three Treasures of Health
    1. Essence (Jing)
    2. Energy (Qi)
    3. Spirit (Shen)

    This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  6. #501
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    Originally posted by canglong
    The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
    Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
    1.) Chan philosophy
    2.) Martial Art
    3.) Health

    For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

    A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
    1. Buddha (Master)
    2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
    3. Sangha (family/community)

    B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
    1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
    2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
    3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

    C. Three Treasures of Health
    1. Essence (Jing)
    2. Energy (Qi)
    3. Spirit (Shen)

    This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.
    canglong, you are talking about a complete study of shaolin. But several here practice shaolin martial arts without the religious aspect included. They can be seperated into parts. I'm not making an argument that shaolin-do is pure shaolin. I just think that one can study shaolin martial arts without practicing Chan Buddhism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #502
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    Judge Pen,
    yes I agree that's why I started my post with The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all. I do think there are some that study part and believe they study the whole though.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  8. #503
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    Fair enough. Although I'm interested in Buddhism and Taoism philosophy, it's not a religion I would practice. I don't think anyone at SD says they study all of shaolin (just the martial part). The breathing and mediation that is taught is taught as a martial and health perspective; not a spiritual element.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  9. #504
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    Judge Pen,
    Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated. I am not familiar enough with SD to discuss it in length my remarks were to simply help clarify the definition of Shaolin in this discussion.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  10. #505
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    Originally posted by canglong
    Judge Pen,
    Buddhism is not classified as a religion to my knowledge it is a philosophy as you yourself have stated.
    My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  11. #506
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    No apologies necessary just trying to share and grow like yourself.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  12. #507
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    Originally posted by Judge Pen
    My misunderstanding then. I thought one defined themselves as a Buddhist as a way of identifying their faith. I'm sorry if I offended.
    Most do.

    It just happens to be an agnostic religion. Also, heterodoxy is no problem in China and in most Chinese religions.

    Many westerners are attracted to the philosophical system presented within the Buddhist religion and therefore tend to think of it as simply a philosophy, however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity. You can take the philosophy of Christianity without the religion as well....it's called ethical humanism. Buddhism has a cosmological system, many formalized systems of prayer and spiritual advancement. There are formal hierarchical organizations and every other defining characteristic of "religion".

    The case for Daoism as a philosophy is stronger. There is clearly regligious daoism as well but there is a much clearer tradition of daoism as simply a view of the way the world works as presented in the Yi Jing. The "Dao De Jing" ironically is not titled, "The Classic on the Dao" but rather, "The 'Sutra' of Virtue". 'Jing' is the Chinese term for religious texts. It CAN refer to philosophical works but the first association is religion. And the 'de' in Dao De Jin is not denoting the possesive. It is another character: 'virtue' ..as in 'Wu De'. The compoung word "Dao De" means: Virtue or 'morality'.

    But daoism lacks Buddhism's degree of formal systemization and deity worship.

  13. #508
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    Originally posted by omarthefish
    however, it is every bit as much a religion as Christianity.
    That's what I thought. My point was that I was attracted to the philosophy of Buddhism without it's core spiritual components. I always identified it as a religion primarily and a philosphy secondarily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #509
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    Threadstarter: Yes, it's "real" Kung-fu. It's an excellant system, weather you listen to the trolls or not. It's not as "pretty" as some other systems of Shaolin, but it has purpose, and martial application. If the majority of schools are scheduled like the one I belong to, there is a LOT of time spent on sparring and application study.

    You will also find traditional excersise and meditation techniques, a wide range of weapons, and develop a wonderful range of versatility in fighting techniques and tactics.

    It's such a shame that on THE kung-fu magazine forums, for the world to see, there are so many disrespectful people. It really makes Kung-fu practitioners look hypocritical to see us preach of respect and honor and yet assault a school and it's members every time they are raised in discussion.
    Steel sharpens on rock. Man sharpens on man.

  15. #510
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    I'm a Buddhist.

    Buddhism is my religion.

    The Lord Buddha is not a god.

    There is no heaven or hell.

    People who say that Buddhism is not a religion have a shallow understanding of either Buddhism or religion.
    Simon McNeil
    ___________________________________________

    Be on the lookout for the Black Trillium, a post-apocalyptic wuxia novel released by Brain Lag Publishing available in all major online booksellers now.
    Visit me at Simon McNeil - the Blog for thoughts on books and stuff.

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